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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Jedi Philosophy Was Pretty Messed Up...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Moviefan2k4, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    The advice was sound. But I wasn't that impressed by Yoda's delivery of the advice. I found it rather mechanical. In a way, I'm reminded of the main character from "LOST", who had received some sound advice from this father. Unfortunately, the manner in which his father gave the advice proved to be ineffective.
     
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  2. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I'd say that irrespective of the quality of the advice or its delivery, as long as Palpatine was in the background offering what he purported to have at his disposal, Anakin was never going to follow the Jedi's suggestions.
     
  3. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012


    But...who does Yoda think he is giving advice to? I mean, seriously...this is a Jedi Knight. If anything I'm amazed at how unperturbed Yoda is. To paraphrase Anakin; "How can you be a Jedi Knight and not know this?"

    And that's the thing. Yoda believes himself to be talking to a Jedi Knight, sworn to his vows. He does not believe he is giving advice to a man who is afraid his wife is going to die....because Anakin is a big fat liar. Well, he's not fat, but the point still stands.
     
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  4. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011

    The advice would still be rather harshly delivered even if the person Anakin had dreamt about wasn't Padmé, though. Imagine if Anakin had dreamt of Obi-Wan dying. Or Palpatine. It's someone he cares about, that he is close to. Telling a person to "rejoice" when someone they love dies and to not mourn or miss them does very little to reassure or provide a method of dealing with the emotional pain of loss. Yoda meant well, but I think DRush76 is saying there's a major disconnect between Anakin and Yoda (and the rest of the Jedi).

    Given that there's a war going on, I doubt that Anakin's the only Jedi seeking Yoda out for advice. Yoda himself is most certainly not unaffected by the passing of so many Jedi during Order 66.
     
  5. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012


    Harshly? He is a Jedi Knight. He should already know this stuff. He's not some wet behind the ear padawan.

    And...the reason there is a disconnect between Anakin and Yoda (and the rest of the Jedi Order) is because Anakin is living a lie and deceiving everyone.
     
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  6. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011

    Already knowing something doesn't mean hearing the truth can't still be painful, though. Especially when it relates to death. I know that one day I and everyone I love will die. But when dealing with a person I care about dying, bluntly stating this fact to me would be kind of harsh, even if I already know it. Feelings/emotions are always somewhat irrational. It's why I consider the way Yoda stated things to be a bit harsh, even if he meant well.

    As to the disconnect, I think you're partially right in terms of Anakin living a lie. But I think it's more complicated than that because there was clear disconnect between Anakin and Obi-Wan in regards to his mother and Obi-Wan was well aware of the situation there. I think it has as much (if not more) to do with Anakin's background being so different from that of the other Jedi.
     
  7. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    I know what you are saying and, as I have acknowledged, if it were some non-Jedi approaching Yoda I have little doubt that Yoda's advice would be offered in an entirely different way. It is not, as a Jedi Knight, just about understanding that those around you will die (as we all have to come to terms with) it is that, as a Jedi Knight - having attained the status of Jedi Knight - he should be fully aware of the implications of what Yoda is telling him already. This is not some new wisdom Anakin is being introduced to, it is something he should be living every day. He reveals that he understands what is expected of him in AOTC (Attachments...forbidden. Possessions...forbidden etc.) and he has sworn vows to that effect to the Jedi.

    Also, in terms of Obi-Wan's advice to Anakin. If he had not gone to Tatooine (where he could not save his mother, and where he took his first steps down his dark path) then... his dreams would have passed with time.
     
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  8. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011

    I understand your point, but I think you have to put it into context as well. Anakin doesn't show up one day out of the blue with questions. He's clearly disturbed by the vision and is trying to see if there's anything Yoda can tell him that will help -- particularly in terms of preventing it. Yoda gives him a warning because he reminds Anakin of what could happen should his fear of loss overwhelm him.

    In terms of Obi-Wan, you are correct. But note that if they had taken action earlier, Anakin may have been able to save his mother. He has to live with that fact and I think he has a very hard time with it.
     
  9. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    Or, if Obi-Wan had reconsidered and allowed Anakin go go there earlier, he might've saved her and not killed the Tuskens.

    EDIT: I was beaten to the punch on this one, it seems.
     
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  10. Jarren_Lee-Saber

    Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2008
    I agree with most of your OP, and I think Lucas deliberately crafted the Jedi Code to be dry and cold. Emotionless monks is pretty much the way they are.

    However, I strongly disagree with your views on this part. Grief, and especially mourning loss, is NOT a necessary part of life! It is a MASSIVE setback that ruins lives & careers and relationships all the time! Being able to deal with & overcome loss without struggling through emotional breakdowns is IMHO the most important thing you can train yourself to do. I have seen friends succumb to crippling grief and I have seen others overcome it quickly, or even not experience it at all. That line from Yoda is one of my favorite quotes in the Saga, because it is SO TRUE!
     
  11. Jarren_Lee-Saber

    Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2008
    Why would we do that when we love the PT and it's half of the Saga!

    Also, since I'm now watching TCW for the second time (and I've seen the PT many many times), I'm convinced the political situation in the galaxy is based on.....the modern USA and ancient Rome
     
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  12. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    I disagree. I believe grief and mourning over loss is an important part of life. But one has to learn to eventually overcome it and not allow it to dominate the rest of your life.
     
  13. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2009
    The things you described come from dwelling in continual grief, but detaching from it completely can also have similar effects. The best way to handle loss is allowing yourself to feel those emotions for a time (it varies with each person), instead of trying to pretend otherwise.
     
  14. Jarren_Lee-Saber

    Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2008
    I don't feel. I've long since let go of those I feared to lose. Yes, it annoys some people who expect me to start weeping at funerals and go into a week of depression afterwards, but I don't really care. I'm much more content this way. Jedi morals FTW.
     
  15. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I don't see the Jedi philosophy as being particularly extreme. Loss is a part of life so learn to let go or you'll destroy yourself. Isn't that the guts of it?
     
  16. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    Last week, I attended a memorial service for a friend who passed away a few days earlier. The pastor leading the service said we should be happy that our friend was in Heaven in the Lord's presence, and that his pain had ended. However, he also said it was OK for us to feel sad, because of the pain our friend went through and our sorrow at being separated from him. That's the same message I heard years ago when my Dad passed: be happy he's at peace, but don't be afraid to feel sad and miss him. My family still misses him, but we've adjusted.

    That's what Yoda should've said. Again, I'm not saying it would've completely defused Anakin, but it sure didn't help. I know if somebody had told me "Mourn him not, miss him not" after my Dad's passing, that somebody would've gotten at best a massive yelling at, and at worst a punch in the mouth.

    As always, how you say something is just as important as what you say.
     
  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    I'll say it again. Anakin is a Jedi Knight. he is supposed to be in this place already. So how it was said is in regards to that ntion. That Anakin isn't really a Jedi is not known to Yoda because Anakin is lying to everyone.

    What you were told was perfectly reasonable. There's a difference between bottling up emotional attachment - pretending you feel no loss - and dealing with it. But that is by the by in this case. The reason that (as Anakin acknowledges, and as Yoda elaborates upon the reasoning) a Jedi is to avoid attachment is precisely the situation that Anakin finds himself in.

    I'm sorry but I'm supposed to believe that Anakin is recognised within the Jedi Order as worthy of the position of Knight - but then I'm supposed to feel that he should be treated like a child? I'm supposed to feel sorry for a guy who is not a Jedi Knight - is not in a position to be because he has broken his vows.... and the vows are there to stop a Jedi falling to the "shadow of greed", the selfish jealousy that is the danger of attachment and so are shown - by Anakin's actions - to actually be perfectly reasonable and well considered.
     
  18. Big_Benn_Klingon

    Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 14, 2013
    I think the jedi are messed for everything you say and more. I also feel that the Jedi Order is a very reactionary force. Essentially the state-church for the Republic, but more like the armed crusader orders of the middle ages. These "keepers of peace" actually just maintain and protect the political order of the state - which has a tiny ruling elite and an extremely large and very poor working class of trillions (living in places like the bowels of Coruscant). I cant imagine jedi being viewed as 'friends' by the common citizen. Could easily imagine Jedi being sent in for some "aggressive negotiations" to quell "disgruntled spice miners, on the moons of Naboo" on the side of the bosses.
     
  19. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    That isn't what this discussion is about, but I can't disagree with you on how the PT Jedi were formulated within the PT. However...we never see those working classes . The story is only about elites, It is the story itself that shuts out the 'masses'. They have no part to play in the battle between 'leaders' and 'gods'...
     
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  20. Big_Benn_Klingon

    Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 14, 2013
    Fair enough, Im tired and got a little sidetracked. My connecting point was that any notions that the Jedi have about themselves are completely divorced from reality and what they actually do in the universe. Penetrating the ideology of the Jedi necessarily means you will find completely contradictory concepts and meaningless or counterproductive doctrines - as you would for many ancient religious orders. Making sense of it is futile, at least in my SW universe ;)

    But on my sidetracked note, yes the saga is only about elites and the unwashed masses are only there to fight and/or die for the gods. Even the self-righteous Alliance to restore the Republic is nothing more that the disenfranchised elites of the former Republic pursuing their own interests - not particularly noble on close inspection.
     
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  21. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Yes..it is interesting the way a story is told in the prequels ends up affecting the way the OT is understood....
     
  22. Pakkpekatt

    Pakkpekatt Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 28, 2013
    I would not say the Rebellion was driven by the elites. It was risky business especially at the very beginning. But thanks to the writers the Alliance achieved almost nothing you have an another civil war mere 40 years after Yavin.
     
  23. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004

    I agree in principle. You can't just ask people to just shut down what are normal emotional reactions to loss.

    In the context of the films, however...

    I think only one makes a fair point that Anakin is by that stage an established Jedi. This stuff isn't new to him as he's heard it since he was a little boy. I think Yoda can be excused for cutting to the chase somewhat in this discussion, expecting that Anakin will know what he's referring to from earlier teachings.

    Also, I don't think completely shutting down emotions is what's portrayed by the Jedi elsewhere in the films. Yoda is clearly upset at the loss of the younglings when he returns to the temple after order 66 and he says that he will miss Chewbacca as he prepares to leave for Dogobah. So I don't think the intention is that emotions be completely shut down, bur rather just that attachments not be allowed to become all consuming and destructive long term.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Anyone who has lived through a tragedy of the sort that doesn't come quick and suddenly, like Anakin's, has to be able to function. Those who had it unexpectedly, it is one thing to mourn that loss. It is another to let it be everything. Look at Luke in ANH. Obi-wan dies and he's anger and then depressed. The next minute, he's fighting TIE Fighters and shown to be fine despite seeing his mentor cut down. He functions. He moves on. In ROTJ, he is sad to see his father die. He burns the remains and later he comes to the Ewok Village and celebrates with his sister and his friends.

    There's also a clear difference between you and I, and a Jedi. We can mourn for our loved ones and move on. A Jedi has a different problem. A Jedi has a power that is fueled by emotions and a lack of control will result in those emotions taking control and thus the power they wield will corrupt them. A Jedi needs to be more level headed and clear minded, in order to survive such an ordeal. That is why Yoda warned him as he did.
     
  25. Darth Koo

    Darth Koo Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2013
    All Anakin had to do was say that he saw his wife, Padme, in his visions and things would have been different. He may have been kicked out of the Order, but I feel the Jedi would have done more to help Anakin more, especially since Padme was a big supporter of the Order.