main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Jedi Philosophy Was Pretty Messed Up...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Moviefan2k4, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Anakin, certainly. But in what way did Yoda "fail to learn" that? Yoda was the one conveying the message that Anakin didn't want to hear.
     
    Alexrd and MOC Yak Face like this.
  2. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    I find these teachings quite deplorable too.

    I couldn't agree more. It's perhaps more deplorable to demand adherents to your cult to do the same. Like when Jesus said:
    I guess Lucas 'drafted this ideology' because it precisely mimics real-world examples of how religious/spiritual philosophy and morality is so screwed up.
     
  3. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    While some religious principles can be (and often are) abused, erasing them altogether isn't the solution. Its very important to take each piece of advice on an individual basis, seeing how well it relates (or not) to the matter at hand. For example, Jesus' words about His ways causing division in families was necessary, because genuine truth divides people. Some in this world don't want anyone telling them what to do, or how to live...but a total lack of rules produces chaos, not freedom.
     
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  4. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    How can you tell if it's a genuine truth? Wouldn't a follower of Jediism make the same claim about that aspect of the Jedi code? And wouldn't they make the same judgements about the functionally identical yet theologically contradictory codes of other religions, as you did with Buddhism?

    The part of that quote I was hoping you'd notice was Jesus' demand that his true followers should love him more than their families, as that has direct parallels to Buddhist (and Jedi) principles of attachment. I could (probably should) have quoted from Luke 14 instead, as it's a lot more explicit and relevant:

     
  5. Dameron

    Dameron Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 8, 2014

    Again, in-universe, this is not some terrible crime. Yoda may have said he will miss thousands of people over the course of his 900-year life. But out-of-universe, Lucas has to show us the 100 minutes that matter most. Someone can say two things years apart in-universe, but the writer can reveal his true opinion by how he chooses to put those things just a few minutes apart. And the fact that he chose to include both "Miss them, do not" and "Miss you, I will" in the tiny part of these characters' lives that we will ever see... I feel that he doesn't himself care to take Yoda's philosophy too seriously.
     
  6. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    It's pretty hard to argue when it's put like that.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the RoTS junior novelization, Yoda's remembering the past friendships's he's had over the past 900 years - and the hard lessons in "letting go" he's been forced to learn as a result - when he's giving Anakin that advice.
     
  8. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    If you want to debate this via PM, that's fine, because I don't want to derail this thread. Suffice it to say that genuine truth isn't determined by what anyone believes; its what accurately corresponds to its referent.
     
    rdhight likes this.
  9. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Oh no thank you. I don't see it as derailment because I'm directly answering your original post, but if you're not comfortable holding your 'real' religion to the same moral standards as an explicitly fictional one then my point is well made.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  10. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    I have debated this subject many times around here, and it always gets my threads locked, or turned into mock-fests by other users. That's why I suggested PM.
     
  11. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    When he decided to go after Palpatine, following the activiation of Order 66.

    If you don't agree with me, may I ask a question? Is there anyone who can name some of the mistakes that Yoda made . . . or some of his personal flaws?
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    So your philosophy is to say, "**** it, let the Republic fall"? Not to, you know, do your duty that you swore an oath to fulfill? Not try and see who was left alive and warn them of the danger.
     
  13. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    So....Anakin siding with the guy who is has connived against every individual in the galaxy for...who knows how many years, commits mass murder, including the slaughter of children, with an army at his back in order to, perhaps, keep someone alive who would be horrified by the price paid for her life is to be equated with Yoda - who goes after the individual who has actually been orchestrating and coordinating mass murder, war etc; who goes after this one individual to try and put a stop to the enslavement and military oppression that will result in his living? You really don't see any distinction?
     
  14. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Before it gets out of hand - regarding the religious parallels being drawn in this thread, they're perfectly relevant, but let's keep them confined to how they relate to the Jedi philosophy, not debate their real-world validity. That's what the Senate discussions in the Community forum are for.
     
  15. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Agreed, but it's going to be tricky if we're discussing moral principles.
     
  16. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    True, but if a certain detachment can be maintained, there's no reason why such discussion can't happen, and like a lot of topics that crop up in this forum, I don't like the idea of forbidding certain areas, just because they're 'touchy subjects' (the Red Letter Media reviews are one such 'forbidden' topic of discussion).

    Let's keep religious references to the specific doctrine and writings - that's the way GL himself tended to use RL religion as an influence, anyway. Although he sometimes used the SW Saga as a way of expressing his political opinions, he never really used it to comment on religion itself.
     
  17. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    There's a lot of overlap between political opinion and religious commentary. Religious orders are not immune or exempt from discussion of political struggle. The Jedi (and Sith) are pretty high up in the social hierarchy. The Jedi order is a religious and political entity.

    In the OT GL presented a divided galaxy that was, at least partially, sceptical of the existence of The Force (as expressed by Han and Motti), and presented the power of the Force in terms of woolly mysticism/sorcery. The baddies ridiculed The Force, the goodies said "may the force be with you" to each other. Use of the phrase was instrumental in Han's character development from bad-boy to goodie.

    The PT attempted to add a sci-fi element to The Force - which I'd argue represents a change in GL's religious/spiritual message. Though we're shown that The Force is objectively real throughout the saga, the PT introduced the idea that it has empirically testable elements. To me this seems like GL reaffirming that it's a natural (rather than supernatural) phenomenon. I think he's telling us we should believe in it because it's real, not because a spooky old wizard told us to. I don't think he needed to, but I digress.

    The PT also showed the Jedi Order to be bureaucratic, dogmatic, judgemental, arrogant, stoic, incompetent, incurious, corrupt, slow to act, etc etc... I think this reflects real world changes in attitudes towards religion and spirituality between the 70s/80s and 90s/00s. Cold war era attitudes regarding religious freedom had lost much of their relevance. Hippies attracted by esoteric spiritual guff (which heavily influenced the earlier Jedi/Force concept) had had 3 or 4 decades to sober up and recognise the hypocrisy of it all. Pop science and rationalism was coming in, patchouli scented dreamcatchers were on the way out. I think GL's attitude towards attachment and materialism had probably ...evolved since 1977, too.

    Belief in god/spirituality/The Force was no longer narrative shorthand for being a good guy. I think the rise of the Sith and collapse of the Jedi Order made a number of religious/spiritual statements which encourage scepticism and cynicism towards those who wield political and religious power. I think at least some of this was on purpose. ;)
     
    Arawn_Fenn and Iron_lord like this.
  18. KINGKONG83

    KINGKONG83 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2004
    Its lazy writing by GL,wich couldnt write himself out of a wet paper bag w a blaster to his head under threat of drawing and quartering folllowed by beheading by a dull vibroblade
     
  19. KINGKONG83

    KINGKONG83 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2004
    No cause in current Jedi belief,there is no afterlife,just entering back into the life FORCE without retaining your ID

    Thats basically akin to atheist view of afterlife sort of
     
  20. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    KINGKONG83 - please try not to double post, keep multiple replies in the one post and use the Edit function if need be. Thanks
     
  21. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    Superficially, I have no problems with most of the Jedi philosophy. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Jedi's complacency and stagnation prevented them from truly understanding what they were taught . . . until it was too late. Their questionable actions, initiated by their failure to recognize their attachment to the Jedi Order, did not help.