Lit Jedi Protestantism

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Bib Fartuna, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    What do you guys and gals think of the story possibilities of Jedi 'Protestantism'?

    Elaborating further, I'm not referring to sects such as The Potentium, however, a decentralized hierarchy.

    Let's use an analogy that the Jedi Council is similar to the Cardinals of the Catholic Church, and Yoda (prequels) and then Luke (Post ROTJ EU) is the Pope.

    I believe that there would be interesting story possibilities if there were Jedi characters whom shared the exact same belief, Light-Side Force sensibilities as their fellow Jedi, yet didn't want to adhere to a centralized authority structure. A Jedi schism if you will.

    How do you think Jedi 'Protestantism' would work in the EU?

    What would the 'Five solae' of the 'Protestant' Jedi be?
  2. General Immodet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I am particularly interested in the 15/16th Century.
    That is why I have read a lot about popes such as Alexander 6, Julius 2, Leo 10...
    They all were obsessed by power and lived in a decadent world.
    Some people such as Luther or Savonarola opposed them.

    Do you think we can compare those people to EU characters?
  3. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Not sure of existing characters, however, it would be interesting if there were. For example, Light vs. Light, instead of the usual Light vs. Dark dichotomy.
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  4. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Alexander Sextus was a pretty corrupt Pope, however, in theory, he was still meant to represent the 'Light' (Love the TV show 'The Borgias' by the way, pity it was cancelled before it reached it's conclusion). Could any Jedi fit that bill, without going into the usual Star Wars EU 'Grey' analogy? Continuing along the religious analogy lines, perhaps the opposing 'Light' protestant Jedi character, rather than Martin Luther, could be similar to John the Baptist?

    Would the reformed (pardon the pun, ie: reformation) Kyp Durron be applicable?
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  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    A fairly close parallel, pre-Clone Wars, was the Altisian Jedi- they believed most of the same things as the mainstream order- but differed in a lot of small details- and believed the Jedi should not be the hierarchy under the control of the government, that Yoda's were.
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  6. General Immodet Jedi Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    There was a time when Jedi still served as Chancellor. That, however, must have caused other Jedi to form some kind of opposition and form their own 'order'.
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  7. General Immodet Jedi Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    I loved the series as well. Although it did sometimes make a mess of chronology and some characters acted not the way they did when they lived, the makers did a great job constructing a story about the Church and Italian noble houses during the 15th Century.

    Yes, indeed, I would have loved a fourth season. The makers already told they had planned four seasons (ending with Alexander's death and Della Rovere becoming pope, I presume?).

    While I was watching the series, I read Il Principe by Machiavelli and Il Cortegiano by Castiglione.
    Personnally, I think it is a wonderful feeling that by reading those works you yourself are connected with persons who lived centuries ago.
    Bib Fartuna likes this.
  8. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    we already have that in prequel times... Djinn Altis Jedi Order had same number of members as Yodas but a differentstructure despite being lightsided.

    f.e.
    -love, romance, relationships, attachement were allowed
    -even nonforceusers or rather those with minimal talent were allowed to learn the ways of the Force and work with them
    -adults can be accepted and trained too
    -decentralised structure based on ships mostly to be mobile for missions and few outposts
  9. JackG Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Jedi Chancellor = Holy Roman Emperor
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  10. Order66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2004
    star 1
    Yes, the idea of a Protestant Jedi movement is an excellent analogy for Star Wars. It was inevitable, regardless, if you wanted to extrapolate what would happen when dissenters began to voice their opinion against the hierarchy.

    One problem is that Lucasfilm and Lucas are too simplistic in the way they portray the SW universe. Everything is good guy/bad guy. It’s like military people at the Pentagon (or soldiers on patrol) talking about "the Bad Guys" because it’s their shorthand, without understanding the implications of their vocabulary. An example of this "Disney" perspective is the concept of spice. Lucasfilm writers, wanting to protect the innocence of SW, said it was not a drug. (How could Han Solo be a drug smuggler?), but Lucas, at some point, said, yes, spice refers to drugs, along the lines of weed, cocaine, or meth. (Lucas still has trouble with Han Solo shooting Greedo first).

    There already is a "protestant" movement in SW, though it could never be called Protestantism because of the cultural baggage from the real world. The two sides in the Protestant movements and the Reformation were heartfelt positions based on real differences in religious (i.e. attainment of heaven), political (governmental rule and structure), and economic (i.e. tithing and indulgences) perspective. Ashoka’s friend (I forget her name), who bombs the Temple, would be part of this movement. In reality, there would also be many positions between the extremes of Council orthodoxy and militant protest.

    As a Catholic, I’ve read my own church’s history with an open mind, and there are many good reasons to be openly critical of Church policies. The Protestants had many good reasons for challenging the authority of the Church and the pope.

    I’ve already compared the Jedi in my book to the Jesuits in their structure and organization, but I didn’t discuss the comparison to their suppression in 1773 when Pope Clement XIV was forced to dissolve the order. Europe was torn by sectarianism and the Jesuits had to go into hiding or face persecution, even death.

    One could argue that Dooku represents a "protestant" group. But Dooku represents evil, not a particularly informed or honorable person. He’s "honorable" or "cowardly" according to pop cultural "understandings", not against the historical standard of honor. He doesn’t represent an alternate view; more a sociopathic one. He doesn’t seem to have any empathy anywhere in the movies, so no one can empathize with him. He is, therefore, a sad representation of real change or criticism of the Council. Arguably, both sides of the Catholic/Protestant divide would vilify individuals in the opposing camp. (You should read some of the stuff they said. It really does fit in an HBO mini-series.)

    The Jedi Council is not treated as a real council. It’s more of an ideal – wise men/women/aliens paternally guiding the Order, at least in the movies. If they were portrayed as both clever and wise, then we wouldn’t like the story that would be revealed. One in which real decisions would have real consequences. I think Stover’s Windu in Shatterpoint is a pretty good direction for portraying "heroes" as intelligent, but also controversial and sometimes, not agreeable.

    Unfortunately, SW writing is not sophisticated; the dichotomy of good/bad is too simple. But that’s changing with the Clone Wars animated series, which is so full of violence that it shouldn’t be considered a children’s show. I didn’t like how they dealt with insurgency on Onderon (it shouldn’t be in the hands of "kids"), but there’s more perspective that gets away from the simple good/bad characters. I don’t think the writing will get better until someone approves an adult-themed series (with real sex, violence, and drugs) or if the writing in the new movies moves to a more adult portrayal of the universe. I love what Christian Taylor did with Mortis and the Younglings building their lightsabers. Also, the roboot of ST and BSG brought in better themes without condescending into simplistic dichotomies. I think the prequels made SW more complicated, but not sophisticated.

    Sorry for the "essay", but I think this is a great topic.
     
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  11. MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I thought everyone knew that the Jedi were Presbyterian.

    [IMG]
    [IMG]
  12. Reveen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    Well, I think we've already got the basic setup with the Old Jedi Order. They, like the Roman Catholic church, believe that all spiritual authority regarding the force derives from them. I think such a split should be more about that than just some Jedi going off to defy the council's lifestyle restrictions and the conflict comes from certain nation states deciding to reject the normal Jedi order and foster the new one in their territories.

    A light Jedi-vs-light Jedi wasr might be hard to swallow. But I could see the Republic splitting and wars starting because they don't want another Jedi Order running around that might be used against them. Bring in a manipulator within either order trying to force the Jedi to war and you're set for something pretty interesting.

    So who's the equivalent of the Assassin's in Star Wars? Honestly I'd be pretty cool with a crossover book where Ezio Auditore runs around stabbing Sith and Jedi alike to death.
  13. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Prequels got Djinn Altis Jedi Order... Old Republic times got the Revan's followers splitting from the main order to follow Revan... in all eras the Corellian Jedi do their own thing, if allowed or not while nominally part of the order only... even in Old Republic times you got post-Revan the Jedi Convenant, an order within the order so to speak that behaves like some christian orders did within the catholic church.

    it all is there already, no need to create it anew. just use what we got well.
  14. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    PS: Saba vs. Kenth... been there done that ;)
  15. Parnesius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    Neither the chancellor, nor supreme, nor a Jedi.
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  16. General Immodet Jedi Master

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    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I know what you are talking about, but I never played Assassin's Creed.
    Still, I would like to play it one day, just to be able to meet Catherina Sforza and Cesare Borgia.
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Jedi being organized hierarchically are an exception, not the norm. The Jedi Council was supposed to be a post-Ruusan invention, except Bioware lacks all creativity and copies the films incessantly so we see councils in KOTOR and TOR as well (as well as the Room of a Thousand Fountains being name dropped in KOTOR2, so Obsidian messed up too! Did nobody read the PotJ sourcebook?? yeesh!).

    Corellian Jedi were generally independent. TotJ era Jedi were mostly independent too.

    Not really. The HRE was a secular ruler who (in theory) protected the Church in exchange for his title. A better analogy would be the sovereign prince-bishops who were scattered around Europe, or even the pope himself after the Donation of Pepin because he had both spiritual and temporal holdings. Even that's inexact though, because he didn't run a formerly secular realm -- he was just given land holdings.
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  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
  19. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    What the heck? Is that a case of foreign subtitles, reconverted into English, gone wrong??? :)
  20. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Forgot about the Corellian Jedi. They liked their own efforts of separation so much, that they awarded themselves medals ;)
  21. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

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    Nov 4, 2012
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    Does she show her bush in the game, like she does in "The Borgias"? ;)
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  22. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Aug 21, 2013
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  23. Reveen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    "Our dichotomy opens the combat" is, like, the best line ever. I wanna see someone use that in a book and have it make sense.

    How the hell did that happen anyway? Was it a Mandarin overdub that some idjit just grabbed the script for to run through google translate?
  24. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    The picture links seem to be all broken for me, but I get the gist, and my original assumption was correct ;)
  25. Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    I think a Kaiju smashed the 'rip' factory...