Speculation Jedi still hated in Episode VII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by clone3131, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    The ST building upon 1-6 would be no more retcon than building upon 4-6, which is to say it wouldn't be retcon at all. If it added something which changed the meaning of 1-6, THAT would be retcon (though not necessarily bad retcon)
  2. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 2
    The Jedi will be considered unmitigated heroes by the time of Episode VII unless something major happened in the inter-meaning years after RotJ (all EU aside). The public may have fallen for Palpatine's propaganda, but quickly realized they were tricked, hence the celebrations at the end of RotJ.

    Also, Vader and Sidious will not have tarnished the reputation of Force users as some have suggested, because very few outside of imperial big wigs knew they were Force users to begin with. From the point of view of the public, a Jedi named Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance rid the galaxy of an evil empire and dictator.
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  3. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    There is nothing wrong with Luke referencing Mace Windu or anyone else. Let's not forget R2 was there for the whole thing, you don't know what he happened to record.
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  4. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    ep 7 could begin with old age Luke erasing R2's memory ... that would be an interesting twist .. i get the feeling they will go back to the Christ reference .. anakin was born of a virgin .. all that .. and then u know the full circle theme ... Luke will somehow be prosecuted like Jesus .. perhaps he tries to mediate both sides and bring peace as the prophesy foretold ... and as a result of this leadership role he is thrust into .. both sides see him as evil and they kill him like Christ ... even with the death star gone .. there is still a war .. the bankers and the techno union and the clone programmers are all still all over the galaxy .. heck .. did they even ever blow up that fleet of star destroyers that was behind them when the death star blew in ROTJ .. I do feel political and controversial subjects are fair game as long as they are relevant to the thread discussion .. the SEAL team 6 reference is as controversial as any other political reference .. considering Osama was dead of pneumonia 7 years prior and previously was previously kept alive intentionally because he was a CIA employee for the US. They went after Saddam instead. Nobody was allowed to see or examine the body of Osama yet Saddam is publically excecuted live on tv. speaking of that ... i wouldn't mind a star wars reference to mass media manipulation .. they certainly dove head first into politics with the prequels .. that could be part of the angle to kill luke while luke takes on some ghandi like response and basically allows his own execution .. luke does all good stuff but the media completely paints him as darths son .. and super evil .. luke has to go into exile where he struggles with following his fathers path and becoming the most powerful thing in the universe or staying good .. he stays good and lets them murder him .. then the next round of actors takes it from there .. meanwhile the real supervillain is some banking war and hollywood media and news merger with a small group controlling information across the galaxy .. again this mirrors our news outlets ... which are all owned by a single person .. ahem ... i would say a media based plot might be a bit cheesy for a respectable star wars movie but then i think of that 2 headed anouncer at the pod races and .. well .. i don't see them rejecting such an idea outright .. and of course all of this would feed into a general hatred towards the jedi by the populus and not just the greedy bankers etc ...
  5. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    i'd like to see lukes exile lead into some more info about the sith as he studies in solitude .. R2's memory could be erased to protect the jedi for some reason .. could be an interesting twist on R2 like some 'one flew over the cookoos nest' type theme where R2 becomes some vacant personality and 3po doesn't know how to handle it .. maybe 3po joins the techno union after Luke selfishly chooses to erase R2's brains .. SITHreepio LIVES!!!
    Panakas_Dawg likes this.
  6. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    do you really believe that OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR was just a propaganda piece? I'm not going to discuss some conspiracy theory... The truth of the matter is a mission like OP NS would make for great star wars. When someone goes to watch Zero Dark Thirty, when you are done imagine if the mission were the opening to new episodes of Star Wars. That being said, I am sure the new owner of Lucasfilm would love to preach against giant media outlets... Not like Disney owns ABC or anything...
  7. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    Will Luke be shown watching "family movies" of his mom?
  8. StoneRiver Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2004
    star 4
    Will the Jedi be hated?

    Throughout the entire OT the good guys repeat a certain phrase, a certain phrase that can be taken as support of all things Jedi-like....

    "May the force be with you/us"
    kainee likes this.
  9. Frank_TJ_Mackey Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2000
    star 4
    And think it's a "hokey" religion.
    kainee likes this.
  10. StoneRiver Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2004
    star 4
    Touche sir!

    But at the same time, the only person we see call it a hokey religion is an ambiguous scoundrel of a smuggler (at the time), not a member of the Rebel Alliance fighting against the Empire trying to re-establish the Republic. And this character has grown up in a time when the Jedi (and use of the force) were all but extinct to the general populous.

    But even then, later on Han says to Luke "May the force be with you" ;)

    So to me, hate still doesn't quite cut it. Calling it a hokey religion is a lack of faith or understanding, doesn't really signify hate. :)
    Last edited by StoneRiver, Dec 18, 2012
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  11. Frank_TJ_Mackey Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2000
    star 4
    Yes.....like peopl says "Please God help me" when they face a trial. It doesn't mean that believe everything the bible says.

    I think that "May the force be with you" is more an old saying than anything else.

    It's not gospel, since Lucas changed is mind a lot in the past 30 years, but this tiny bit of aritcle about the ST in 1983 might tell us that the Jedi will have to rebuild some kind of trust with the population.

    May 23, 1983 issue of TIME:

    "In the sequels Luke will be a 60 years old Jedi Knights. The sequels
    focuses mainly on Luke and Mark Hamill will get the first crack at the role
    if he's old enough. If the first trilogy is social and political and talks
    about how society evolves; the middle trilogy is more about personnal
    growth and self-realization and the third deal with morals and
    philosophicals problems. The sequals are about Jedi Knighthood, justice,
    confrontation and passing on what you have learned."
    Last edited by Frank_TJ_Mackey, Dec 18, 2012
    kainee likes this.
  12. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, agreed, and it would totally be in Han's character to say, "Gee whiz a real life Jedi! You guys rock!" Han, if anything, is a cynic
    StoneRiver likes this.
  13. StoneRiver Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2004
    star 4

    Nice info.

    I can see there may be pockets of resistance to returning to the Jedi way, and some of those may even hate the Jedi, although I'd guess they'd be the ones who have prospered during the "Dark Times". Throughout the OT the only hate I can pick up on is a fear and hatred for the Empire and their oppressive regime.

    I can only speculate, but I'd say the struggle rebuilding the Jedi order is how to go about it so it is more flexible than the previous one, finding new force sensitives, rebuilding it learning the lessons from the failures of the previous order. I just can't see a general hate towards them. The only people that hate the Jedi are the people on the wrong side of the law.

    That being said, I can totally see that "May the force be with you" could be just a saying in the line of actors saying "break a leg", or "God bless", or even someone just saying "good luck".
    kainee likes this.
  14. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    yeah and nobody knew anything about the force before luke stumbled on obi wan ... even in the empire they thought darth was an old has been believing in bs .. and their top 2 guys were sith ... luke leia han and a few close friends started with all that force talking nonsense after being introduced to it thru obi wan .. people didn't ever go around saying garbage like "may the force be with you" as if it were "have a nice day" prior to luke ... luke has no reason to "restore a jedi order" because he has no clue what a "jedi order" is ... he wasn't even born then .. jedi had reached religious myth levels by the time luke grew up .. the BEST thing the new star wars could do is dump the old actors .. get a new still young and vital luke and leia and have leia go sith .. representing the two sides of Darth .. their FATHER ... the idea of luke heading up a new group of Jedi Mind Trick and Force Power and Lightsaber wielding super witches would terrify the galaxy at best .. no sensible script would allow such power wielding individuals such power over the galaxy .. it would be insane after all that happened thus far in the movies .. it would make no sense at all .. that's like hating George Bush senior as the evil nazi war profiteer that he is and thinking george bush junior wont start up a war in iraq just the same as his father .. they are both pure evil .. even if luke is a decent guy .. the public wont stand for it unless there is a false election like they did with bush jr. then we can kick into the hollywood media sith spell to keep the people submissive or maybe lucas will finally lay out the revolution plot with solutions for sustainable living and honest government ... either way .. jedi as the heros is a major fail if this saga is to have any credible storylines whatsoever
  15. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    That falls in the political side of things in a non political thread...
  16. DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2012
    star 2
    I like the idea of learning more about the force. Definitely. It was something I had assumed we'd see much more of in the PT, but it didn't turn out quite like that. I mean...the most memorable Jedi philosophy that I can remember off the top of my head right now is "no attachments", and "this lightsaber is your life". The later seeming very un-jedi light-side. I mean..really...this weapon is your life? That sounds... odd.

    But that was sort of the point. The galaxy was corrupted. And what we got was a political PT that showed us that. It wasn't just the Sith or the Government that was corrupted, the Jedi were too. The OT then focused on personal relationships and rebuilding common foundations. It would be nice if in the ST, we did learn more about the force. The Jedi morals were all out of whack, and Luke had to unlearn what he had learned. Same goes for the entire civilization. It would be cool if that's what Luke has been doing in the 3 decades hence RotJ.

    The saga would then flow like:
    PT - Corruption/Fall: Morals and ruling body are corrupted. Tyranny ensues.
    OT - Redemption: With everything lost, personal relationships and families - the foundation to the structure of civilization - are born. Bad guys turn good. Evil is overturned.
    ST - Rebuilding / Morals / Legacy: The evolution of that same friends/family structure is grown. Society reforms based on new shared mores/morals. Philosophical truths emerge. New Religion forms. Legends are created and passed on.

    Could be interesting.

    I'm definitely leaning on the side of the Jedi are still in exile. Not necessarily due to hatred. Just due to a natural progression of things. Luke has no precedence for what a Jedi Order would even be. And as he learned what went down during the last days of the Republic he would/could be wary of starting that same system up again. Certainly one that was completely entwined in the ruling body.

    I think when he comes out of self-exile, it will be a relief to many. Almost like how some view the return of Christ. People are always waiting for it...it was promised. But they go on with their lives, building society in the way they can based on their morals. I've written here before but I think the first time we see Jedi in the ST, could mirror the way the Sith were introduced in the PT. Mysterious. Perhaps, like...Luke's apprentices swoops in and saves the day. And he in a subtle way...shows that the jedi are ready to come back full force.
    Last edited by DarkGingerJedi, Dec 18, 2012
  17. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi were corrupt in so many ways in the PT... People on here cling to the doctrine established by Jedi long dead before Episode 1. Refusing Anakin to train in the ways of the Force because of his age? Wouldn't that have allowed for some dark sider to swoop in and corrupt him from that early age? I am just saying that training a force user no matter the age seems like a better deterrence to prevent darksiders than turning away the people that are capable. The no marriage thing... They claim it was because of attachment. Why? So you can be closer to the Force, just as a monk is closer to god through not having loved ones? How does one have better affinity with the Force or fall to the dark side because of the Force...

    Hypothetically, had the Jedi Council been more accommodating with attachments, as strongly discouraged but not forbidden even. When Anakin and Padme fell in love, Anakin wouldn't have had to hide it. Just inform the council, "by the way, I am in love." They would either pair them together more, or try not to put them in danger at the same time. Their marriage didn't affect him doing his job as a Jedi until he had premonitions of her dying, which due to the strict no attachment laws drove him into the hands of the Sith. Had he come forward and been like, "I have a vision of my wife, Padme, dying. How do I stop it?" Then Yoda could hit him with something like he said later to Luke, "Always in motion the future is." Meaning that Anakin could have prevented it, that it didn't have to happen. The Jedi COULD have helped out, you know taken her to Polis Massa and had Anakin by her side for the birthing of the twins. Instead they did what was seen in the movies. Why? Not because of some long decreed order?, No, because they were prequels and we all knew the kids and father were running around but the mother didn't make it. The attachment thing was a macguffin to drive a wedge (not antilles) between Anakin and the Jedi.

    The Master Apprentice thing seems to work, however I would still like to see Jedi perhaps hiding in the populous still.To reference the EU, I think Corran Horn after becoming a Jedi Knight but before New Jedi Order series, when he was still flying with Rogue Squadron is the best case. Only his close friends and family know about his Jedi training. I highly doubt he was wearing his Jedi robes in his X Wing, rather probably a flight suit
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  18. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    at the same time you might say .. if anakin had followed the gosh darn rules .. he would not have turned sith .. being one with the force is difficult when you have a physical attachment .. the bible even discourages attachment from your wife and your own kids .. the focus on the physical world distracts from the ability to interact with the force/god .. monks and jedi can love just fine .. love is not the issue .. a monk or a jedi loves everything .. a person in love is choosing just one thing or person to love .. this is not healthy and is counterproductive to a jedi true role which is to love everything unconditionally .. we see this with luke and darth .. luke loves darth unconditionally and that is what changes darth back to slightly less evil than usual .. with padme anakins love was conditional because of the inherent attachment of marriage .. anakin only loved padme if she was loyal .. when anakin found that padme and obi wan did not agree with his choices he hated them .. that is because his love was not unconditional .. it was born of attachment/need/fear ... marriage in itself forces attachment .. it is a promise to share that love with only each other ... as soon as someone breaks that promise, whether it be physical or emotional loyalty (such as with obi and padme) that love turns to resentment because of the attachment .. this is not unconditional love .. even if anakin had told yoda he was "in love" with padme .. that relationship was still attachment .. anakin would still worry about losing padme and that would affect his ability to function within the force .. if he was not attached to padme and she died .. he would be able to carry on in his jedi ways without all the pain and suffering he went thru worrying about padme .. he would be able to let go and see that her death was just a part of the ways of the force and he wouldn't be so desparate to control the will of the force .. and thus .. he would not be so easily manipulated ...
  19. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think Mace Windu loved Anakin or alot of things. The Old Order Jedi had their faults too. Their attachment was the stringent adherence to the code. Attachment isn't love. One can be attached to a planet or even a master or apprentice, not necessarily a romantic loved one.

    I think the role of the Jedi is to "see the good" in everything. Luke does this because even in one of the most evil people he can "see the good in him". Luke sees the good in Han and even Lando. I think this is because of his upbringing by his aunt and uncle as a farm boy as opposed to Anakin being raised as a slave.
    kainee likes this.
  20. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    If you guys arn't carefull the world will be destroyed on Friday by one of these text-blocks.
  21. DarthLydia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Too many replies to see if this has been hit on so forgive me if someone else said this. I'm personally a little tired of the "Jedi are outcasts and fight against the odds even though the galaxy hates them" type story. It seems they whip that out in the EU like every other story line. True, it hasn't been in the movies much but it's been done to death in the books.
  22. Han Shot First Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2012
    star 2
    Thankfully not that many people have read the books!
    TheManFromMortis likes this.
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    o_O Which is why they're usually prominently displayed in any major book chain, right?
  24. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    And many hit the NYT best sellers list. Just cause they aren't on the boards, doesn't mean EU fans aren't out there
  25. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Whole forum of em several floors down, actually. :p