Jedi Teachings Flawed?

The thing is that this is my interpretation and I know it can be picked apart using sources outside what is seen and heard in the episodes but the thing is that the interpretation deals only with what is seen and heard in the episodes. It is an interpretation that exists because of my point of view of the world around me. I do not see the interpretation as fact.

Within the episodes there is no explanation as to why Qui-Gon retained his identity so this leads me to believe the explanation is there but it is up the viewer to figure it out. This is how the interpretation works. It does not rely on Lucas quotes, EU, scripts, or Star Wars literature.

 

Yes.

Kubrick originally had a segment serving as a prologue to "2001: A Space Odyssey", I believe, in which scientists discuss extraterrestrial intelligence. He cut it because he wanted audiences to draw their own conclusions as to the origin and function of the probes.

 

Yah, CLAD, that's basically what I wanted to say.

 

Ah I definitely agree that it's possible with what we see on screen.

 

Interesting thread here, quick questions.

If bringing balance=kill all Sith as some here suggests doesn't that mean that the force has been unbalanced for over a 1000 years?
The jedi thought that all Sith died 1000 years ago but they did not, there was at least one Sith around. And if the jedi could sense that the force is unbalanced wouldn't that tell them that there are Siths around?

Second, the death of Palpatine and Vader would then be temporary fixes, there is always a chance that a jedi can give into his/her hate and fall to the dark side without Sith influence and then you have a new Sith and the force is unbalanced again.

Regards
Nordom

 

But the jedi didnt know the force was unbalanced until the Sith re-emerged. Yes, the Sith were always about, but the Jedi couldnt feel it until the Sith revealed themselves and started to cause real chaos - From TPM onwards.

Yup. You cant ever get rid of evil. The Sith will most likely retern - hence the need for a Jedi Order to stop them from taking power once more. Someone needs to fight them.

 

But since the idea seems to be that the Force "created" Anakin with the express purpose of bringing balance ie. kill all Siths it seems that the Force took an awful long time to act. If the Force has been unbalanced for over a 1000 years, probably at lot longer, then why did the Force wait so long before it did anything?
Also why where the jedi even interested in the prophecy?
If they belived that all Siths were long dead then the prophecy would be meaningless since it talked about something that had already happened.

But since again the Force had to step in and create a chosen one to kill the Sith then, if another jedi fell 20 years later, then it would have to create a new chosen one or bring back Anakin again.

Regards
Nordom

 

Sorry, I'm just making sure I understand what you're asking Nordom.

So you're wondering why the Force waited so long to take action against the unblance since the Sith had been around for a thousand years right?

Perhaps because the Force wasn't unbalanced until the time the movies started. Perhaps because it really wasn't the Sith throwing it off course but a mixture of the Sith "attacking" and the Jedi "repelling" in the wrong way...

 

Well I am asking because a) the movie is not very clear on this and b) because others in this thread have said that the mere existence of a Sith causes the Force to be unbalanced. That is as long there is a single Sith alive somehwere in the galaxy then the Force is unbalanced.
Some suggest that Lucas himself have said "Sith=unbalanced Force".

I have a slight problem with this notion and that is why I asked and I also gave some of the problems I have with it.

If the unbalance is caused by many things, the increased activity of the Sith, the indifference of the jedi, the corruption in the senate and other things then I have fewer problems with.
It is just this somewhat simplistic notion that if there is a single Sith out there then the Force will imideatly become unbalanced.

Regards
Nordom

 

If the unbalance is caused by many things, the increased activity of the Sith, the indifference of the jedi, the corruption in the senate and other things then I have fewer problems with.

Well I personally don't think the Senate itself has anything to do with the Force being unbalanced, but the fact that a Sith Lord is in control of the Senate, it does appear that way. What I see in the saga is politics and the Force somewhat emerging and changing as one since the Chancellor/Emperor is a Force-user himself. That affects everything.

But you're questions are good ones, and I stick with what I said. It was a mixture of the Sith and Jedi going about everything the wrong way (to make it simple).

 

My answer would be that active Sith unbalance the Force as opposed to the Sith that preceded Palpatine who really didn't do anything except train their apprentices, hide, and die. It's the actions that are those of any sucessful Sith (Taking over the Galaxy etc.) that's the problem.

There is that chance however, I think the idea is that all evil is destroyed and as such there would be no evil to tempt the Jedi into falling. While destroying evil forever isn't possible in reality, it would fit with the myth that Lucas view Star Wars as being.

 

But surely those Sith in hiding used the Force for training and such, so wouldn't that count? It's not like a Sith that is taking over the Galaxy is the only one that is throwing it off balance, a Sith is a Sith and they all use the Force for "bad" things so I'd assume it would be unbalanced either way.

 

It would depend I think on how much they are using the Force. If they're using mostly neutral things such as push, jump, etc. I don't think it would be throwing it out of balance. I'd think it's only once they are throwing lightning etc. that they become a problem. We also don't know how strong the Sith preceeding Sidious were or how often they used the Force. It could easily have been more like Old Ben where they have knowledge of the Force, but barely use it so that they can remain hidden.

 

Well I see Anakins birth as a reaction by the Force. When the force was 'slightly' imbalanced there was no reaction. But when things began to slide, when the Sith gained more power and when corruption (organised by the Sith) spread, the Force reacted and created Anakin. What we have to remember is that the force is the collective conciousness of the galaxy - its created "by all living things".

So I always saw it as a reaction by the force due to the growing suffering of the galaxy. I don't think the Force is a sentient being. It didnt just think one day "Hmmm, imbalance - i'll create a chosen one". It just simply happened when things began to really go out of sync.

But who says they were? It was only brought up in TPM when something was going on and a kid was found who matched the description of an ancient prophecy that the Jedi knew of.
It just sort of fell into place.
An imbalance was felt by the Jedi. A kid was found. "Hmmm, maybe that prophecy we read about in history is true afterall?".

Not really. Like I said, Anakins birth was a reaction to what was happening at the time. At the end of the day, Mace could have killed Sidious. Sidious wasnt immortal. He could be killed. He was just very good at staying alive! Anakin wasnt specifically 'needed' to bring balance - it just turned out that way. He was only prophesised to do so. Prophesies can be false. And after all, the prophecy in itself is seperate to the actual creation of Anakin.

Anakin was just a reaction to what was going on. If you use your computer all day, you will get a bad back! Thats all it was. Thats all Anakin was. A reaction to the times. To the state of the galaxy. The galaxy is being screwed, Anakin is born.

Should another Sith arise there may or may not be another chosen one born - another reaction. But the Jedi themselves exist to destroy the Sith and they may just be able to do it alone this time!

Just remember this -the force is an energy field created by all living things.

So the Force is just the life force - the product of all that is happening in the galaxy.

And the state of that conscience is being worn down by the bad guys and their actions.
The galaxy is being eroded away by this evil and it will effect everyone and everything.

So i see the will of the force as what is needed to keep the balance. But this too is created in the same way as the force - by the galaxy. Its a sense of what is needed for the greater good.
As the Sith begin to corrupt more and more, there becomes less and less people willing to do what must be done to keep the balance.
Once this occurs -once this downward spiral picks up momentum, its becomes harder to stop.

This is why Anakin is born. One powerful enough to change the galaxy - for better or for worse. Its his choice. But he is simply a reaction. He has free will. he has the power to change.

The creation/birth of Anakin to me is the 'sympton' of the conscience of the energy field. Action and reaction. Cause and effect. Some bad stuff is going down. Anakin is the reaction to it.

 

Nice to have the old you back, Shaitan.

I agree.

It also explains the following line: "He could influence the midi-chlorians to create life." Notice that Palpatine doesn't say "use"; he says "influence". Influence >> affect >> indirectly cause to happen.

 

That could be it.

 

there is no rightest way in interpretation. what you can criticize is when people would say, oh, but obi-wan and maul aren't duelling. it seems like fact to me (although there is probably some awesome postmodernist sitting somewhere who can twist that as well).
lucas is the author of the saga, no doubt, but whatever he thinks he puts forth, is not necessarily what he put forth. they are intentions and the only thing i can do with intentions is to judge them *against* what i perceive, not along with it. essentially by bringing in his opinion about his work, you overcomplicate your own interpretation.

thus 'will of the force' can be something the jedi have come up with as to personify the force, or it's really actually existing, no one knows, it's up to you to decide and it will forever be the beauty of exchanging those ideas of what it is that makes sticking around places like this one worthwhile. it's the way we learn about each other. by getting to know why and how you've decided what the will of the force is.

 

If bringing balance=kill all Sith as some here suggests doesn't that mean that the force has been unbalanced for over a 1000 years?

The jedi thought that all Sith died 1000 years ago but they did not, there was at least one Sith around. And if the jedi could sense that the force is unbalanced wouldn't that tell them that there are Siths around?

So, all that time many of them believed there was an imbalance in the Force, due to the prophecy, yet they found Qui-Gon's statement about the resergence of the Sith hard to believe. Interesting.

This makes me wonder if killing all the Sith was the only means to bring balance to the Force. Personally, I doubt it.

 

However, I'm not sure the Jedi believed the Force was imbalanced that whole time given that Mace seemed to find the idea that the Chosen One was this boy before him to be fairly ludicrous.

 

See my post above. They didn't know the force was imbalanced for 1000yrs. They couldn't feel the Sith's presence until TPM when they came out of the shadows. The balance really began to swing once the Sith took their plans to the next stage. And when Anakin turned and the Jedi were wiped out the balance was all but destroyed.

The prophecy wasn't something every Jedi read about every day and prayed upon. It was just an ancient prophecy that was useless until they felt the imbalance in TPM. And then, at that time Anakin came along too.

But that still wasn't enough to make them take the risk of enrolling Anakin. Prophesies are not absolute. It may be a coicidence. But come the end of TPM it seems the Sith really have returned and that they should just train Anakin.

 

No where in the six episodes did the characters ever once state that the Force was imbalanced for 1000 years. By your reasoning that means the Force was never balanced before the end of Return Of The Jedi because there were always Sith out there. There were many more Sith prior to 1000 years before TPM. What 1000 before TPM represents is when Darth Bane created the Sith code of only two. So why would two Sith cause an imbalance to the Force for only 1000 years when there was a greater number of Sith prior to that time frame?

A prophecy is an absolute. There is only one kind of prophecy and everything else is just bogus. You can have a prophet talk about the future but if doesn't come to pass then the prophet is just a b.s. artist. In the story of Star Wars a prophecy comes to pass, so fatalism exists in the story of Star Wars, however, the characters have the power to choose between right and wrong.

But see your reasoning here is not consistent with the dialogue from the saga. Time and time again the audience is told that there is no such thing as coicidence or chance or accident in Star Wars.

"Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

"In my experience there's no such thing as luck."

"You cannot escape your destiny."

 

But we know the Sith werent extinct. We know its the Sith that cause imbalance. Therefore, we know that the force, to some extent, was imbalanced for this amount of time - just not enough for the Jedi to sense it. Only when the **** hits the fan in TPM is it apparant that the force is going well out of balance.

That isnt the case. The prophecy in Star Wars just came true. But it could have turned out false. Just because it was true in the ned doesnt mean it was going to be right all along. If that were the case then the characters would be puppets. They're not. They control their own destiny.

I agree fully. But I wasn't stating a fact or my opinion - I was talking about the Jedi POV in terms of the prophecy. To them what happens in TPM (before they know of Maul at the end) could just be a coicidence or not related to the Sith. The prophecy could have been misread...

Etc etc.

My point is that the Jedi can't simply put blind faith into something as fragile as a prophecy - and they certainly wouldnt do this when they were unsure whether the Sith had returned or not.