Jedi vs. Sith morality: are we watching the same movie?

Ok, so, I've noticed a rather interesting trend in many of the threads I've read. There seems to be disagreement as to who are the 'bad guys' (i.e. Sidious was a better mentor that the Jedi. How is it that people can buy into Sidious's lies and half-truths and actually try to justify the actions and thought processes of the Sith ? While RotS added a bit of grey to the equation, IMHO the morality set up in SW is rather black and white. Jedi=GOOD Sith=BAD. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

P.S. Mods, forgive me if this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, I'm just an 05er.

 

Interesting.
I think that people just try to have an open mind when watching the movie as they should.

 

Agreed. But dont let that open minded-ness blur the lines between right and wrong

 

Lucas designed much of ROTS to be a gray film, instead of just black and white. His point was to show how similar the Jedi and the Sith were, but then he made us see how different they are with the duel and the beginning of the film. Some people question the Jedi's method of training, which comes as most of us are not used to that way of life. Even when pointing out the Shoalin Monks of China, they still see it as wrong. They see Palpatine as being right, because he speaks of things which some of us agree with it.

The gray area is what people respond to, because the world is not black and white.

 

I agree that the Jedi are the good guys and gals, and that Sidious is bad, but that doesn't mean that good people can't do things every once in a while that might seem bad to some people, or that bad people aren't going to do things or say things that might seem good to some people. Not everyone, even Jedi, are the same. They each have their own opinions, their own ways of doing things, their own ambitions, hopes, and dreams. Trying to judge all of them by the actions and methods of a handfull of them isn't possible. Even Jedi can fall. Look at Anakin and Dooku. And why do you think there is a thing such as a Dark Jedi.

 

The gray areas lucas explored in ROTS did make me think alot, and it took my fourth viewing to really absorb it all. Bottomline....Anakin was seduced, and the sith, although similar to the Jedi in ways, are evil. The thing that makes me not forget this is to look at the galaxy in 4 5 and 6. The siths idea of peace...well...it sucks. The Empire and their weapons of destruction is not what people had in mind by supporting Palpatine. He promised the war was over and peace would ensue, but really war continued, and no war is worse than a civil war.
He installed regional govenors ,and gave them the power to make decisions that no one man should be allowed to make. Example...tarkin blowing up alderaan.
You have to compare the millenias of peace the Jedi brought to the galaxy, and the decades of war the sith{palpatine and vader} brought.
ROTS may be in the gray, but 4,5, and 6 are definately black and white. Remembering this makes it easier to distinguish whos good and bad.

 

People tend to gravitate to Sidious' point of view because he appeals to our weaknesses and condones them, even encourages them and makes them seem right.

That's why many people defend Anakin and blame the Jedi because they can sympathize with Anakin's weaknesses - they are universal weaknesses and human foibles that we all want succumb to without judgement rather than overcome them.

It's rooted in the philosophy that right or wrong don't exist in the absolute, that there is no moral truth.

Anakin gravitated to Sidious because the sith allowed Anakin to thrive upon his own greed and lust for power, his own pride, his own arrogance.

The greatest weapon of evil is not to spread evil, but to spread "the gray" - the fog of morality wherein good people can get lost and evil can hide.

 

Excellent post ETC. Nuff said.

 

I agree with ETC, though really Lucas said at one point I believe that the Jedi were the good guys, and that the Sith truly were evil. Though I am sure that people have a certain point of view, and I respect that. I side with the Jedi.

 

the jedi undoubtedly have the more noble agenda, but thy are losing track of what is good and what the whole peace and justice business is about.

they are shown as an order who will preach compassion to a t and will not practise it.
the sith order, the one-man show that it is, is shown as seductive, caring and much more action oriented that the jedi.

ROTS is great in its relativism, i love it for that and i hate it. i wish i could just wish away the relativism, but i can't.

 

Good post EwokThatCried.
I agree about it also depending on the individuals point of view. we often see character traits that we display, or desire in fictional characters and heros. and it is not unusual for people to sympathize with those characers , and care for them.and even when a characters morality and choices come under question. we will often still try to see their pov. also a testament to the briliance of ROTS, and SW.

 

Absolutely, ROTS is the most "grey" of any of the SW films. It's important that we can see Anakin's conflict, and how the Jedi could seem to be the bad guys, from a certain point of view.

"Spy on the chancellor"

"But that's treason!"

 

this is thread starting to feel familiar

 

Ethical questions are situational in real-life, which is why it's great to see a film like ROTS exploring this real-word phenomenon.

 

ya, i agree. if the real world was black and white, everyone would definitely choose the good side.

 

I think some people just have fun thinking on different levels or from different points of view. RotS I think isn't grey at all, Sith = Evil (ie killing children) Jedi = Good (ie true Democracy).

 

That's a great quote! (ironically, it paints the world in absolutes "everyone would definitely choose the good side" ) I still love the quote though. The message makes sense, people don't usually choose to do "the wrong thing" it just appears to be the right thing at the time/place.

 

Hmmm...

People tend to confuse the notion of right vs. wrong with want a person wants to do and what a person doesn't want to do.

If you believe in absolute truth, you have a sense of morality and can define what is right and wrong according to this moral compass.

If you do not believe in absolute truth, then you are able to define what is right and wrong based on what pleases you and what displeases you.

Often we make choices against our better judgement and conscience and we do it because it pleases us, but there is an underlying sense of fear and guilt that we made a morally wrong choice.

Anakin is in this position in ROTS. He wants something he knows he should not want. He acts on his impulses based on what pleases him, but the good in him always tells him he is wrong and that he should not be doing what he is doing.

Palpatine on the other hand, has no moral compass. He is a sociopath and can stand outside the parameters of morality even though he recognizes ethics and moral codes. He can look in and manipulate perceptions and deceive people and decalibrate their moral compasses... but he cannot alter actual truth.

He brainwashes Anakin and twists his mind - though he does not actually "bend truth" at all, just Anakin's perception of truth based on what is most convenient for Anakin.

 

during the OT we find out luke's father was once a jedi who was seduced to the dark side of the force to "take the quick & easy path" to greater power. We see the emporer and can only assume that anakin made a decision to turn evil to become more powerful & rule the galaxy.

I think Lucas made the decision with the PT to somewhat "redeem" anakin by showing us a galaxy not as perfect as an elder obi1 would have us believe. Corruption had taken its toll and the jedi were not doing anything/enough to right the galaxy's wrongs.

The PT made it more blurred as to whether anakin's fall (to save Padme & bring "peace to the republic") was indeed an act of selfish greed. However while the PT made the subject more grey as opposed to black & white it cannot be possible to argue the jedi are wrong & the sith are right.

The PT just shows that inaction by the forces of good lead to the gain of power by the forces of evil.

 

The Jedi are MEANT to be virtuous; the Sith aren't. Now, because a true Sith doesn't have the burden of conscience, it is easier for him or her to live up to their organisation's philosophy. But this isn't so for a Jedi! As Qui Gon said in The Phantom Menace, being a Jedi is "a hard life".

There's very little grey about a Sith. At least, a true one. But then I suppose there's very little grey about a true Jedi. The difference is this: while we see a true Sith in Episode III, we will have to wait until Episode VI to see a true Jedi. That's why Palpatine is so good at what he does - the Dark Side is suddenly an attractive package next to belonging to an Order that has grown stagnant and ineffective.

Can you imagine a Jedi Order populated entirely by Luke Skywalkers? Anakin's son had the most life-shaping experiences and sophisticated outlook of any Jedi. Even Qui Gon wasn't shown wrestling with the Dark Side as Luke did. He'd have been an ideal person to calm his own father back in the day. I doubt Anakin would have turned with a more sympathetic and liberal Order.

 

Great post Ewok, but you're definitely opening a can of philosophical worms with that one!

 

Jedi = Evil
Sith = Eviler

 

Spot on. This is called, in philosophical terms, the moral relativist vs. the moral absolutist. I tend to think more along the lines of the absolutist because although there is no society, not even the Jedi, that posesses the "Absolute Moral Code", IMO (and the absolutist opinion) this moral code is developed over a VERY long period spanning the course of human history. In the GFFA, I would say the the Force is that code. The Jedi attempt to follow the Wiil of the Force while the Sith attempt to bend the Force to their will. The Jedi are not perfect because they cannot fully comprehend the Force in its entirety but they are "more perfect" (if such a term exists) than the Sith who have their own, inherently flawed minds. Now when I say inherently flawed I do not mean they are flawed because they are Sith, but because they are mortal and prone to error, just like the Jedi. The Force is perfect and makes no mistakes. The difference between Jedi and Sith is the Jedi attempt to follow the WOTF and achieve perfection, the Sith attempt to achieve their own form of perfection, nut since it is not the WOTF, they will not ever achieve perfection. IMHO, this is why the Jedi have the "high ground" over the Sith.

 

Palpatine was correct when he said that to trully understand the mysteries of the universe one must embrace a much broader view of the force and not the dogmatic view that the Jedi allows.
And "good" is a point of view.

But! he uses this truth to brainwash and decieve Anakin. He speaks of viewing the force as a whole but then suddenly shifts instead too focusing on the darkside under the presumption that the darkside is all that is important anyway. Although he talks about looking at a larger view of the force he doesn't practice what he preaches. I think this is also how he ultimately corrupted Dooku. He' able to lie with the truth essentially.

 

I agree. Sidious was telling Anakin basically the same thing that Qui-Gon was telling Obi-Wan. When Obi-Wan said, "MASTER- If you would just follow the code you would be on the council" and Jinn followed it up with telling Obi-Wan how much he still had to learn. It's the dogma, not being centered and concentrated on the Living Force that makes the Jedi so incompetent. But Sidious's mistake is thinking that the dark side is where it's at when it isn't. Had the dark side been powerful, the Force wouldn't have never been balanced by the Chosen One in ROTJ.