Jedi vs. Sith morality: are we watching the same movie?

this thread stopped making sense a while ago.

Totally agree.

 

Bring it back to where it started then!

I think it's simple - the Jedi Order are in decline, as illustrated by Lucas, and as such the Sith illuminate the failures of their teachings (and they are there).

It's not so much that the Sith are benevolent at all - far from it - but Sidious has valid criticisms of the Jedi Order. They exist in an ivory tower, and judging by their mentoring of the vulnerable, unique, troubled Anakin, have lost all insight and understanding of the common person, whom they are pledged to protect and serve. They only *really* understand other Jedi by ROTS - and that's because there is little enough to understand about the individual Jedi because they *are* largely selfless (being raised as such from near-birth) and thus not subject to the same inner torment and personality defects as others (like Anakin).

By failing to understand human (er, sentient) failures, how can they have any real sympathy? Without sympathy, how can they have compassion?

 

Lucas wasn't portraying gray lines... the understanding of what is right and what is wrong was still there. He just chose to show the jedi in the light of what path they shouldn't be following to understand the force. They aren't perfect people, but their intentions are good, and they want to do what is right.

I watch ROTS, and I can't find an example where you think Palpatine thinks what he's doing is right. And I can't find a place where you start to think maybe he is. When Palpatine starts to laugh and foam at the mouth with hatred toward Yoda, there is no gray lines. You know who's right and who's wrong. It all comes down to when Palpatine started to seduce Anakin. In order for us to understand the situation, Lucas had us seduced with him.

 

One last thought before I retire for the day...

I think it's clear that Sidious thinks he IS doing what is right.
He believes the weak are chattel, and the weak are also those wasting their efforts defending the chattel.
He believes that power is absolute and everyone aspires to gain it or fears to lose it. He does not believe the Jedi are truly selfless, perhaps because he has no understanding of selflessness.
I think the movie is entirely grey. Even the Jedi are shown losing their moral compass, as the Dark Side clouds everything.

'Evil' people rarely say to themselves, 'Boy I love being Evil and Good sucks!'.
Sidious simply does not believe in 'Good' or 'Evil'. He believes the Jedi are a hypocritical version of the truth (which is Power) which have good PR and cushy political positions. I think he truly believes he is 'right' and that 'goodness' and 'evil' are illusions.

Lucas of course imparts on the viewer what *is* truly good and evil - but *all* of the characters in this movie are lost in the grey.

 

I don't think the order was in decline because of their own faults. They were in decline because of the dark side. That is the imbalance and its clouding their vision.

Palpatine was just too damn good for them to do anything about it. I admit that Anakin's initial training could have been handled better, but I don't see a problem with the order in general.

 

The Jedi are absolutely in decline by their own inaction. They have had 1,000 years of domination with only a few negotiations and random joes to fight or deal with; they are entirely unprepared for the Sith to return and become lamb for the slaughter. With no real, worthwhile enemies to play against, they move toward becoming a huge bueraucracy that eventually is their own undoing. They have developed a painful moral code that is shortsighted and they eventually have to forego and play in a grey area they created. Morals are defined by the people who create them; while my moral code would have allowed for what they did, theirs did not, it is that simple. Palpatine however behaved exactly as his moral code dictated - jump in a shark tank with a bleeding wound, expect to get bit...

 

The decline is due to the Jedi becoming so fused with the Republic that they became servants to a society that corrupted itself.

The Jedi morals are not what is wrong. It's the decline in morals of the society they promised to serve and defend.

So when that society is being led by an evil sith master unbeknownst to the Jedi, they are essentially serving evil.

The Jedi should have never let themselves become so mired in politics that they could not act independantly. They had no political leverage whatsoever. They served the Senate.

Their moral perspective should not be called into question, however, only their judgement vis-a-vis their role in the Republic.

 

Good posts guys. I wasn't totally blind before, but I'm definutely coming round more to your lines of thinking.

 

Wow ETC, your gift of wisdom and insight is known throughout the land.... but this gem of a post takes the cake! Couldn't have said it better myself.

It wasn't the Jedi morals, but the Republic's. With the Jedi being so fused with the Republic, they had no option but to go down with the ship. A ship steered by Palpatine.

 

With the Jedi being so fused with the Republic, they had no option but to go down with the ship. A ship steered by Palpatine.

Sure they had an option, but they lacked the vision, the will or both to do it.
At the end of TPM, they should have got the hell off of Coruscant and gone Sith
hunting rather than acting as conscience for a state that didn't want a conscience.

 

As Yoda notes in the novelization, the Sith adapted and the Jedi didn't. Not saying that what Ewok said isn't valid, but when it came to dealing with the Sith, they weren't prepared for the new tactics being employed. These two things are what did them in.

 

That's exactly it, Sinister. The Sith saw how the Jedi became symbionts with the Republic, so they exploited the opportunity by infiltrating the Republic and corrupting and ultimately destroying it - and the Jedi with along with it.

 

Riddle me this...

Somehow, the Jedi are completely blameless in Annakin's fall to the dark side, yet somehow it is all the Sith's fault for the demise of the Jedi. Sounds like folks having their cake and eating it too. There are hundreds of Jedi, some with nearly 1,000 years of experience who somehow are overcome by a single Sith??? Yes, Palpatine took over the Senate, but he didn't walk in one day and say, "Ok, let's all be evil" and they all nodded their heads in unison and approved funding for the Death Star... Excuse me for not grabbing a tissue to cry for the poor, innocent Jedi...

 

Dude, you were lost to the dark side long ago, no one expects any tears from you.

 

The Sith were able to get to them through their arrogance and unwillingness to adapt. If you recall, Yoda points out why he and the other Jedi were defeated in the first place.

 

If we follow your line of thought, consider this analogy. You are saying that if a woman is raped and killed, it is her fault. She was not strong/smart/quick/etc. enough, so she is to blame.

Sure, the Jedi should have adapted and been less arrogant, as D-S mentioned, but the vast majority of the blame lies with the Sith. The faults of the Jedi were simply not so critical as to justify their murder at the hands of the Sith. BTW, the couple of million clone troopers helped out too. Which is a nice segue to my next point....

I also believe you are oversimplifying Palpatine's rise to power. Remember, it spanned the entire PT and it took him 13 years. It was so gradual and subtle that nobody gave much attention to each tiny increase in his power (from senator, to chancellor, to chancellor with emergency powers, and ultimately, to emporer). Each step, by itself, is not so noticable, but everyone (the Jedi included) through short-sightedness and arrogance, failed to realize what was happening. Furthermore, his power was accumulated through legitimate means, so legally speaking, nobody could remove him from office legitimately. (I suppose one could if they found evidence of his dealings with the Seperatists and Dooku, but Palpatine covered his tracks extremely well.)

BTW, the Senators NEVER saw themselves committing evil. When Palpatine declared himself Emporer, it was received with thunderous applause.

 

Sure they did. Stick to their dang guns and not train the boy He was too old after all

 

I agree, but I think Sidious would have found another way to destroy the Jedi

 

Without Anakin there was still Dooku. The Sith would have found a way.

The Jedi became diplomats and servants of the Republic instead of servants of the Force and Sith hunters.

 

Precisely.

 

'Servants' is an inaccurate description. More like 'meddlers'. The Jedi Order continually meddles in the affairs of the Republic, yet there is only one instance where the Republic meddles in the affairs of the Jedi (and the Jedi were furious. Apparently the Jedi only believe in 'separation of church and state' when it suits them).

I'm afraid to say that the Jedi morals and hypocrisy are part of what is wrong, no matter how much you try to zealously deny it. That doesn't justify their slaughter, but to tout that Jedi=Angel Sith=Devil is a gross simplification.

It was their choice to 'serve' (more like control) a corrupt entity. The Jedi were responsible for their own choices. Don't you try and absolve them of blame by trying to hint that they were 'forced' to serve the Republic. They could have remained neutral (as they should have), and allowed the Separatists the right to secede. The fact that the Jedi would willingly serve an entity which they acknowledged as inefficient and at times corrupt (even before they knew about Sidious) is solid evidence of moral bankruptcy.

Which is why they forced their way into the home of the representative of the Senate and attempted to arrest him on bogus charges?

What triggered the Jedi's attempt to depose Palpatine was not due to him supposedly being a tyrant, but because he was a Sith. He did not conform with their ancient religion. Now, does the Republic have any specific laws saying that a Sith can't govern, or that one should be arrested if they are Sith? Why should the Jedi be allowed to use their supernatural powers to meddle, but not the Sith?

1. Like when the Jedi use the Stormtroopers as slaves?

2. Like when Mace wants to kill a hostage? "He is too dangerous to keep alive" sounds like an 'evil' Sith ideal, which was muttered by a supposedly evil entity at the beginning of the movie. Funny, I thought the Jedi distanced themselves from Sith values...

3. Like the hypocrisy of the Jedi when they say that they are keepers of the peace, yet refuse to allow planets the right to secede from the Republic, an institution which many Jedi admit is inefficient and failing?

4. Like when Obi-Wan claims that only a Sith deals in absolutes, and then brands Palpatine evil?

5. Like when the Jedi don't condemn slavery on planets such as Tatooine?

6. Like when the Jedi outright lie (Darth Vader killed your father, Luke!)

7. Like their lies about the Dark Side being somehow weaker than the elusive 'Light Side'? Instead of admitting that perhaps the Sith ideal is merely a different perspective, they brand it as an outright lie. Yoda continues to do this in the OT, hinting that the Jedi still lack the ability to analyze their outdated system. Must explain why..

- Thousands of Jedi failed to detect a massive plot against them, due to the Dark Side masking the future.

- Darth Maul kicked Qui-Gon's ass, and was only killed when Obi-Wan gave into his anger.

- Count Dooku was able to lay the smackdown on Obi-Wan and Anakin (at the same time), and manage a stalemate against a Jedi far older and more experienced than him.

- Palpatine was able to clean the clocks of three Jedi Masters at once, and then manipulated the fight so that he was disarmed when Anakin arrived.

- Palpatine was able to kick Yoda's green ass and send him into hiding, despite Yoda once again being older and more experienced than the Emperor.

- Darth Vader (a Sith Lord) was the one to kill Palpatine. Luke was chaff before the Emperor.

As mentioned in this thread, you can'

 

mountain_hare, it's safe to say I can just ignore you as someone who cannot formulate an argument in the proper context of the films.

You have bought into the Sith propaganda and have taken an extreme left turn off course where Lucas never intended for you to go.

---

[b]"The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECIEVED BY THE CON as well." -- Hayden Christensen SW INSIDER 82[/b][hr][/blockquote]

The Jedi only appear as villains to those manipulated by the sith propaganda.

[b]mountain_hare[/b], you have been deceived by the con.

 

Attacking the person instead of the argument. How professional!

I can see why you would be upset about the fact that I ripped your post to shreds, but that is no excuse for personal attacks.

Nonsense. I merely acknowledge that there was truth in what Sidious said, and that there were huge flaws in the ways in which the Jedi operated.

I challenge you to prove that Sidious was lying about the following.

1. Anakin was a pawn of the Jedi Council.

2. The Jedi were attempting to take over. You would have to explain how 'Deposing the elected representative of the Senate' isn't taking over. Good luck in engaging in semantics to justify the treason attempted by the Jedi!

Good on you for reading Lucas' mind. Can you please tell me how you managed to master the skill of reading the minds of directors and script writers?

No arguments to support your stance.
No evidence to support your stance.
Just conjecture and an appeal to authority (which is a logic fallacy, in case you didn't know). Since when is Hayden an authority on the Star Wars Universe? Care to analyze and provide examples from the film, instead of making baseless accusations and parroting quotes by ACTORS?

You have yet to refute my well supported and well argued statements in my previous post. Until you do so, my points stand.

It's amusing that you accuse me of being deceived by a con, yet continually bleat that the Jedi Council is blameless. The Jedi and their supporters seem to love to point their finger at everyone except themselves.

 

I hope you ate youR Wheaties mountain_hare Ewok is a formiddable oponent.

 

DUGGY, my friend, this little one's not worth the effort.

Now let me get you something...