"Jedi's Destiny" Please read and comment

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by Neon Star, Jun 15, 1999.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Neon Star Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2000
    star 5
    A friend and I are in a debate. It's over whether or not a light Jedi should be able to use a double-bladed lightsaber in the RPG. I think no light Jedi should be able to. And no sane Master or holocron would teach it either. Tell me what all you guys think. Thanks.

    Jedi Teacher
  2. jsd Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 1999
    I would have to disagree with you although using a lightsaber of this type shows a certain amount of arogance if you can build one and have the advanced skill for using it then go ahead.
  3. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    *drops .02 creds in the slot* I think I agree with you, Jedi Teacher. I mean, the only guy we've seen use it is a bad guy. For the good guys, the single blade is enough. It can deflect blaster bolts, take out droids, and kill if necessary. The double-bladed weapon is designed to kill, not protect. It seems to be a more an offensive, rather than defensive, weapon. As such, I wouldn't let my Jedi have one. I guess that, if they could prove to me why it isn't designed to kill, maybe I'd let them. But probably still not. The single-bladed lightsaber is, as Kenobi says, "the weapon of a Jedi," and I'll keep it that way.
  4. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Small note on this debate.

    I DM and my player Chris wanted to construct a double bladed lightsaber. We've been playing six years and his character's easily a Jedi Master so I say sure and set some really high dificulties and cost him a few months and some adventures.

    It's takes a while to learn the style but adds +3d to one's lightsaber against a 1 lighstaber opponet and allows you to parry effortlessly twice per round.

    I assume they are for attack mainly BUT however can be used at a battlemaster's discretion. Difficulty and the wickedeness of the look is the main thing that prohibits but Chris needed it because he felt his character was toast against his opponets.

    Charlemagne

    [This message has been edited by Charlemagne (edited 06-15-99).]
  5. Jason Sunrider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 1
    In the comics there is guy who used a blue double ended saber. I'm not sure whether he was good or evil, but that's where I first saw it.

    I'd let any, fully trained, Jedi wield one -- as long as it suited their character. The double ended lightsaber is not something that is taught, but a customized weapon.

    If I remember rightly, on the official site it mentioned that only a skillfull user could wield the double ended saber, without turning into shreads.
  6. Varian Denubius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 1998
    star 1
    I agree with Jedi Teacher. The lightsaber is the weapon of the jedi. A double blade is for offense. Why would a light jedi want one. Everyone thinks there cool but I see no reason for a jedi to use it. Personally I would never encourage my players to use anything but a traditional lightsaber. It is the way of the jedi.
  7. Jedi Teacher Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    I am posting again to get this back toward the top of the list. Thank you to those who already have responded. If you haven't responded to this, please do! I need all the opinions I can get. Thanks.


    Jedi Teacher

    [This message has been edited by Jedi Teacher (edited 06-17-99).]
  8. Sithknight Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1998
    A lightsaber is a tool. It is neither good nor evil. Double-bladed or single, it has nothing to do with being jedi or on either side of the force.
  9. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    I'm not looking at the books right now, so someone please correct me if I get the numbers wrong.

    If you roll less than 10 on your normal lightsaber attack, it means that you've struck yourself and must roll damage to see how badly you've hurt yourself. Since the double ended sabre points in both directions, I would say an attack roll of less than 20 means you hit yourself with the opposite end.
  10. Olsch Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    In martial arts, a longstaff is very similar to this double-ender. I would say it is far more efeective as a DEFENSIVE weapon. It has been quoted in the rules by Charlemagne, "It gives an extra parry per round". Having the extra blade would prevent a wielder from extending the blade from his body to attack. The wielder would be limited in striking range and range of motion for each strike. He could however initiate more attacks but at reduced efficiency and variety of movements. One longer blade would be an offensive weapon, a basic sabre the middle road, and the double blade a defensive weapon.
    It is DESIGNED to combat more than one opponent.
  11. Ronin047 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    I agree with Olsch. I've been in Martial Arts for the past 8 years and done tons of weapon training. Weapons are merely tools, not good or evil in themselves. And, despite what some people might think, using a weapon against an opponent usually translates into hostile intent. Granted, in the SW universe we've only seen two people use such a weapon (Exar Kun and Darth Maul), and both have been evil. This doesn't mean that the use of such a weapon equals evil. Think about it, after the purge of the Jedi, Vader was probably the only person regularly seen using a plain lightsabre. Does that mean that anyone using a lightsabre at that time would be considered evil? I don't think so. Also, in support about the comment made that a double-bladed lightsabre is more of a defensive weapon than an offensive one.....I totally agree. Staves are naturally good parrying tools. A normal lightsabre is better and faster at striking that a double-bladed saber. Therefore, one cannot argue that such a weapon is designed for offense as opposed to defense. However, it must be mentioned that a very high level of skill would be required to use such a weapon without cleaving oneself in half. It is the nature of most hafted weapons that part of one end of the weapon routinely comes into contact with the user. This would be deadly for the user of a double-bladed sabre. I encourage everyone to check out Robert Brown's excellent Lightsabres page at http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm
    I think this page will answer most of your questions.
  12. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    I concede the point about the defensive qualities. I guess it's just my perception of the weapon, considering how it was used. I don't think I'll give my Jedi a double-bladed lightsaber, but I don't plan on throwing so many lightsaber-weilding opponents at her that she'd need one. I would definately say, though, that the difficulty would be much greater. 20 seems reasonable. Also, it seems to me that it would be harder to parry blaster bolts. I'm not sure, having no experience trying to do such a thing , but it seems the build of the weapon would make such parries more difficult. It is even more of a hand-to-hand weapon than the regular lightsaber, it seems. Thoughts?
  13. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Actually that was a "house rule" by the way anyone think +3d is too much a bonus (keeping the much higher difficulty?)

    Charlemagne
  14. Obi-Wan_Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 1999
    I think the whole reason we only have seen dark jedi use the double-bladed saber is because the dark path is "quicker". So you see dark jedi trained quicker, so they have the ability to use a double-bladed saber. I think to translate this to RPG, increase the difficulty to use by approximately one level. I would see nothing wrong with a Jedi using a double-bladed lightsaber, as long as he is powerful enough to wield it correctly. Because no Jedi in their right mind would wield a weapon they couldn't control.
  15. Renard Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 1999
    I think 20 pts may be a bit high for difficulty.

    The role of 10, in my opinion, covers the very basics of handling the lightsaber and using basic movements. I don't think switching to a staff-type weapon would increase the difficulty two-fold.

    I'd set the difficulty around 15pts- the player already knows how to use the saber, it's just a matter of making sure he doesn't cut off a leg!
  16. Jabba the Hutt Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    Jason, the Jedi you saw with the double bladed lightsaber was one of the first Dark Lords of the Sith. His name was Exar Kun.
    Personally i think of a Double saber as something the Sith would use. But i have no problem with a light Jedi using a double saber.
  17. Dan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 6
    A double sided saber has only been used by Sith, but it would be cool to see a jedi fight 2 sith at a time - a master and an apprentice!
  18. Cromwell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 1999
    Well, I have given a lot of thought to this argument as well, as (you can imagine) one of my Jedi wants to have a double-edged lightsaber. I said NO....here's why...

    A lightsaber is not a combat weapon. It is a symbol and a tool and an identifying marker. It's uses are in keeping with the Jedi's belief system of knowledge and defense.

    A lightsaber is a weapon only of last resort -- in keeping with their belief in combat only as a last resort. If the Jedi were even the least bit agressive, they would rule the galaxy rather than it just being a few reckless Jedi arrogantly pushing their way into problems from the outside. This lack of political control is telling to their extreme aversion to conflict and it's resolution. History has shown that those with the best intentions to intervene always end up being intimately controlling and controlled by the events of their time.

    Ok, so what aboot what we see in the movies? It is telling that every Jedi we see using a lightsaber agressively is either a renegade, doesn't follow the council, or is in disfavor with his fellow Jedi. It is certain that most Jedi never use their lightsabers on a regular basis.
    The PEOPLE of the Republic remember the Jedi in stories...stories of those who wielded their laser-swords with great skill and won the day. But the PEOPLE are more interested in the flashier aspects of life. Those Jedi who are the heroes of the Republic probably were of little account in their own order; they could even be outcasts.

    My point here is already we are falling into the Qui-Gon syndrome -- the lightsaber is your way out of every situation. I somehow get the sneaking suspicion that the Jedi Council's attitudes reflect the prevailing opinion and the ethos of their order. Radical as that idea is, it leads me to conclude that Qui-Gon and his actions (especially with the lightsaber) are needlessly reckless.

    Now, before the flamethrowers ignite, how does this affect your campaign?

    Well, very few players probably want to _avoid_ the path of action, adventure and conflict. The Unifying Force has little to offer your average roleplayer on doors to cut open and things to smash. Thus, you have players in the Qui-Gon mold... adventuring, righting wrongs in a flashy and confrontational manner, and generally making a mockery of the Council and their teachings.

    So what the hell...hand out the lightsaber staffs!

    But the double-edged lightsaber...how to fight in a staff style, but not be able to touch the staff?
    What all the experts with years of martial arts/combat experience have neglected to mention (I may have missed it in my fast read of the thread) is that a staff, whatever it's make and model, is an inherently dangerous weapon in the hands of an amateur.

    Oh, and it's virtually impossible to wield one properly without handling and gripping what would be a glowing laser blade. Gripping only the middle haft of the weapon cuts it's defensive properties greatly and makes it's attack uses dangerous. Without 'choking up' on one side of the haft, you get a situation in which you have an equal amount of pole coming at your head as the amount of pole you are using to sweep their feet.
    A staff is a weapon designed around reach advantage and mechanical advantage against shorter weapons. A lightsaber staff yields both of these properties to any other weapon.

    Defensive uses? Two glowing deadly blades does not equal double protection. It just means half the amount of defensive space you have around your body.
    As those who fence or engage in broadsword/******* sword fighting will tell you, the key to defense is awareness and range of motion. A fencer has a tiny wire for a weapon, but a good fencer can (up to the limits of the strength of his weapon) defend any part of his body indefinately. A foil takes nothing from the fencer in defense. He can move his weapon to defend his body with little need to concern himself with extraneous weapon parts. By extension (I'm getting somewhere with this, I think ) a double bladed lightsaber only diminishes it's range of motion...for an exten
  19. Cromwell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 1999
    To be fair, Olsch and Ronin047 are the experts I alluded to in my post, and they _did_ bring up the points I mentioned in my post. In intended no disrespect, just thought you had failed to mention those fun staff facts.

    Also, I am amused as heck to see the weapon also known as a 'hand-and-a-half sword' be asterick'd out

    C
  20. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    Yeah, I found that funny, too, but if I wasn't the mild SCAdian that I am, I would probably not have been able to figure out why.

    I disagree that Qui-Gon used the lightsaber to get out of every situation. He developed a very complex scheme to get off Tatooine, including freeing Anakin. He didn't use his lightsaber or call on his position as a Jedi Master to do this. I actually really admire him for standing up to the Council, who seems rather coldly to dismiss "lesser" beings--those not directly connected with their projects. I would much rather have my players model his compassion than Yoda's detachment. (Remember that he was willing to let Han and Leia suffer and maybe die.) But I think I'm digressing.

    Also, I disagree about the involvement of the Jedi. It seems that they get involved in more places than is necessarily good for them. The fact that the Supreme Chancellor can send them places indicates to my mind a very risky connection with gov't. I almost wonder if this won't somehow tie in with their near-extermination, but that's just RFS (random fan speculation).

    I don't think I'd call the double-bladed lightsaber a gimmick. The two blades are what Maul needed. (I almost want to see him fighting florentine! ) He, the lone Sith apprentice, was trained to fight, and he was going to be taking on more than one opponent at a time (most likely), the roaming Jedi seeming to go in pairs of master and apprentice. He'd need two blades to fend off both of their blades. And florentine wouldn't cut it, because you still have both your blades in front of you (generally). With the staff, you can block a front and back attack at almost the same time (as Maul did). We see Maul use just one end of of his "staff" several times. It's generally only when facing two opponents that he uses both ends. (I hate skirting spoilers!) He shows himself, imho, an apt student of either method.

    That's an interesting point about the quickness of the dark path being the reason for only Sith to have been seen wielding double-bladed sabers.

    I dunno. In general, it seems that a double-bladed weapon is taken almost as a matter of pride, to show how much better a student is than another. I mean, Qui-Gon could probably have learned it, but he didn' NEED to. He could fight off pretty much any threat. His calm "Won't be a problem" response to the number of battle droids in the hanger shows that he has all the weapon he needs. I dunno. RFB. (Random fan babbling. ) I still won't let my Jedi have one.
  21. Cromwell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 1999
    I just watched Ep I again, and observed the lightsaber fight very closely. I have come to the following conclusion:

    As Ray Park is a much more experienced RL person in this area of activity, he understands and uses the weapon in ways an actor unfamiliar with melee weapons of that type would miss.

    Case in point: A lightsaber is an unbreakable weapon. A large part of striking in fencing and so-called 'sword fighting' is awareness of the power you are using to strike the blow. With a weapon that can break easily, you cannot strike as hard. If you anticipate a counter-force against your weapon, you do not strike as hard (as in a parry).
    With a lightsaber, you strike as hard as you can, as it will give you more control over the interaction when the two blades meet.
    The flip side is you must still strike within the limits of your own control. Park has amazing control. He was controlling the blades of his opponents, and recovered from parried attacks effortlessly. A rank amateur like myself would exhibit wasted motion and extra musclework to get the blade back in position. He 'dances' with his blade, letting the sweep of a completed motion pull him into the next defensive or offensive phrase. This is the goal of the fighter. Try to use as much force as possible to dominate the interactions of the steel (or lasersword :p ) but control the amount of force used to retain the integrity of the weapon and your own overall control over the blade.
    How does this relate to a staff-type lightsaber? Well, as stated above, a staff is a muscle weapon. It is unbreakable compared to the weapons it was frequently matched with, and forces a reliance on muscle power to carry the extra mass and combat the extra inertia the 'dead-weight' of the weapon has.
    If you know staff fighting well (I certainly do not) you could easily translate those lessons directly to your double 'saber, with the exceptions noted above (blade length, etc.). Sword fighting and what I imagine lightsaber fighting would be like are amazingly different in practice. The weight difference, the difference in blade feel as you move it, the lack of resistance to motion, etc. etc. I know I would be the Jedi Apprentice known as 'Peg Leg' in a heartbeat trying to convert over.

    C
  22. Daniel Lucas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    Actually, the official website has the double bladed lightsaber listed as a sith weapon.
  23. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    Ah-ha-ha! Up to the top with you!

    Do any of our newer posters have comments?
  24. Jedi Teacher Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    Thank you Ping for bringing my topic back up to the top. I am hoping that this can continue to be a discussion topic. I, of course am adamantly against the use of a Double-Bladed Lightsabre by a Jedi Knight. I welcome all who have an opinion on the topic, and maybe we'll all learn something.

    Jedi Teacher
  25. Pote Snitkin? Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 1999
    Regarding the status of the double-bladed lightsaber: I believe its original use is that of a Jedi training weapon. This "tool" helps to heighten the Padawan's versatility in the actual handling of a weightless blade.
    Darth Maul either modified a training weapon or built a "grown-up" version after extensive training with the double blade; this gave him a distinct edge...pun intended. My source of information in regards to this issue was the Star Wars Episode One Visual Dictionary, though the words are my own.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.