main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Jim Raynor's "RLM's Episode I - Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jarren_Lee-Saber, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    To "roll back" slightly........




    "We spend our lives fighting to get people very slightly more stupid than ourselves to accept truths that the great men have always known. They have known for thousands of years that to lock a sick person into solitary confinement makes him worse. They have known for thousands of years that a poor man who is frightened of his landlord and of the police is a slave. They have known it. We know it. But do the great enlightened mass of the British people know it? No. It is our task, Ella, yours and mine, to tell them. Because the great men are too great to be bothered. They are already discovering how to colonise Venus and to irrigate the moon. That is what is important for our time. You and I are the boulder-pushers. All our lives, you and I, we’ll put all our energies, all our talents into pushing a great boulder up a mountain. The boulder is the truth that the great men know by instinct, and the mountain is the stupidity of mankind."

    -- Doris Lessing, "The Golden Notebook"


     
  2. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2015

    This forum needs a "Love" button.
     
    Cryogenic likes this.
  3. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Can I just take a moment to say that I enjoy pretty much the majority of your posts (I allow wiggling room just in case) and you make the Prequel Trilogy forum a fun place to post. Have all the likes.
     
    Cryogenic likes this.
  4. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Ah! Thanks. It does lag behind Facebook slightly, doesn't it?

    Let's just make do with a [face_love] for now.

    At this very second, love is something the world very much needs a great deal more of.

    Not to mention respect for knowledge, learning, creativity, empathy, and reason.

    Not that there has ever been a time it has been overflowing in these things...



    Very kind. :)

    I needed that pick-me-up as I attempt to process what is wrong with all of humanity.
     
  5. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    In the films it is hard to kill sandpeople. Even Obi had to retreat after saving Luke before they returned in greater numbers in ANH. Plus Owen's dad mentioned he lead 40 farmers on a rescue mission for Shimi, presumably with more advance weapons like blasters and still were nearly wiped out by them.

    In the temple halo security recordings we see Anakin easily cutting down several adult Jedi at once.

    That is the same for Anakin as with Neo, only it took Anakin decades to finally see the light.

    It was more like cowardliness, not hate. Last year I had to have my cat who was dying from cancer put down, which was still hard and I could understand Obi for not wanting to kill his brother. He expressed he could not kill Anakin to Yoda, which is exactly what happened, you don't want to kill someone you love, even if it is a mercy killing like with my poor cat. It was not hatred, it was an something he could just not do and walked away, something he probably did regret. I think you may have a odd view of what the films presents. Yes it was wrong of Obi to just let Anakin burn which is part of the point, Obi is flawed too. Both me and Obi put down are loved ones by proxy, my proxy was a vet, Obi's proxy was lava. Like him, I did not have the heart to do it myself.

    Yes the film does show formations which are breaking down showing the chaos of the war, saying there are no formations does not make it so.

    Umm, a orb of CIS ships surrounding the Invisible Hand as a wall of Republic ships block their path and a line of Republic ships behind Obi and Anakin fighting their way though, it is clear as day in the background.

    Again, umm, there are lots of scenes showing the CIS flagship moving, it is why the Republic SDs attacked it, it was intercepting it to prevent its escape.

    The opposite of what you say is happening in the film, the Republic navy is ramming into the CIS fleet, blasting their ships away. The Republic SDs appear to be much stronger ships than the CIS ships as we see many going down with ease.

    The only ion canon we see in the films is a ground based one, perhaps they are too large to mount on ships? Also they may not have been developed yet in the PT. The SD also did not expect to hit a magazine, it was a freak hit as most magazine hits are.

    In AOTC the Republic did not have SDs yet, so those smaller ships may not have been that effictive against the rings. Plus we don't know if the core ships lacked hyperdrives. A TF battleship is 2 mile diameter vs 1 mile Imperial SDs and sub 1 mile Republic SDs. Those Republic carrier ships in AOTC are smaller yet and my not even be designed for bombardments.

    How come Rebel capital ships did not bombard the DS2, or the Endor base, or even just kamakizl the Endor base and the crew getting away in escape pods?

    Bombing is also very costly as you have to help rebuild the country you bombed after it is conquered. Like the Rebel Hoth base, the Geo bases were probably shielded to protect them from space bombings. AOTC mirrors TESB in which both battles the Republic / Empire is the invading force. The Empire used zerg rush again on Hoth. In reality, the CIS would be able to out manufacture the Republic's Jedi and clones, just like the Empire could out manufacture the Rebel's small supply of whatever they could get. Realism is not SW's strong point.

    In TESB, after the Rebel shields are knocked out,how come the Empire didn't send a armada of TIEs to bomb the base, bomb loading Rebel transports as they would be sitting ducks, and attack fleeing transports.

    Only one SD is shown to blow up, but it is never explained how the Rebels managed to do it.

    The SSD must be poorly designed if fighters can easly knock out its bridge shields. In which case why didn't any Rebel fighters fly down to the Endor base and knock out the DS's shields? Also why didn't the SSD have auxiliary bridges take over like real life battleships? A ship of that size must have had them. That whole scene is contrived.

    The Imp fleet is gone before DS2 blows up. So we can only guess what happened to them. Perhaps they retreated, were destroyed, captured, or surrendered. The film is completely unclear about it and a major flaw of that battle scene.

    It is just your opinion that the PT battles are poorly designed, none of the SW battles are all that realistic anyway.

    The Jedi were relying of stealth and surprise to capture Dooku and rescue the heros. But the the Jedi overestimated themselves and underestimated the CIS as they were ambushed by the droids. The Jedi appeared in the stands to scare the Geo drones and warriors away as well as disable the circle of droids around the prisoners.

    Also, the Imps in the OT handle the idiot ball far more than the Jedi in the PT ever did to make the OT plots work. Ground battle at Endor is a clear example, also Tarkin not sending out his TIEs and Ozzle approaching Hoth too closely. Even Vader focusiong all his forces on hunting down the MF instead of the Rebel fleet. Let's follow the Ewokes into a ambush rather than regroup into defensive positions. In ANH, why the Rebels sat around in their Yavin base hoping to not get blown up rather than trying to evacuate as much as they can in case their fighter attack fails? Lots of retarded tactics in the OT quite frankly.

    Much like Vader not having stormtroopers stationed at the exits of the freezing chamber to ensure Luke could not escape. Yoda came in alone because he knew troops would be useless at stopping a Sith lord, which the film shows later anyway as the troopers shoot at Dooku's ship with no ill effect. Much like Leia shooting in vain at the Slave 1 escaping with a frozen Han onboard.

    ANH never explained if all Rebel ships were that small against the Empire's ships. Length is besides the point. There was clear strategy as I explained above to you, and the buildup is in the crawl.
     
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012

    First, who said it is hard to kill Sandpeople? Obi-Wan didn't try to fight them, he scared them off.
    Plus he had Luke to take care off, if there was a fight, Luke could end up dead.
    Second, who said that Cliegg had blasters? Luke had a rifle in ANH but for what I've gathered, that was not a blaster, just a slug thrower, not unlike what the sand people use.
    Cliegg lost a lot of people yes. How? They went after the sandpeople raiders and possibly walked into an ambush. Since the sandpeople have rifles, they could kill many of the famers in short order.
    Anakin first had the element of surprise, second, the camp was asleep and and we saw him kill two guards and a third guy running at him with little difficulty. Anakin also killed women and children, did these even have weapons? Anakin called it a slaughter, that doesn't sound like they put up much of a fight.


    Except Obi-Wan DID kill his brother. He dismembered Anakin and left him to burn, that is a death sentence given the hostile environment. He made a stroke that he knew would kill Anakin. So Obi-Wan was both willing and able to kill Anakin and he choose a horribly cruel way to do so.
    Obi-Wan choose to dismember Anakin, he could have sliced him in half but instead choose to sever his arm and legs. He knew where he was and he knew this would be a killing stroke just as surely as if he had sliced Anakin's head off.
    This was cruel, not kind.
    Maybe Obi-Wan thought that Anakin would end up in the lava and thus die quicker. But he saw that didn't happen and he stopped to talk to Anakin a bit before leaving. He saw how badly Anakin was hurting and yet he didn't even try to end his suffering.


    No, first when Anakin first spots griev's ship, it is right over Coruscant.
    Later, when the ship gets hit and begins to crash, it is STILL right over Coruscant.
    So it hasn't moved.

    Second, space is 3D, so a wall of ships would do bugger all to stop a ship from fleeing.
    To cut off a ship from escaping a planet, you would need a sphere around the planet or at the very least, a bubble covering a part of the planet.
    Neither is show in the film.

    Again we see Griev's ship when Anakin first mentions it.
    It is above Coruscant, so the planet is below it. We see some seps ships close to it.
    What we don't see is a bunch of republic ships to the right, left or above griev's ship.
    Nor are there any republics ships visible on the far side of Griev's ship.
    So from what is shown, the ship could move in more than one direction.
    But it didn't as it remains over the planet the whole time.



    If those ships are not equipped to fight other capital ships, then they are useless and the republic would loose the war in short order. The clones are foot soldiers but if the ship carrying them are blown up in space, they all die.
    So to be at all useful those ships have to be armed and quite heavily at that.
    Plus, from what I've read, one gun of those ships have a fire power greater than all the nuclear weapons on Earth combined. One shot is about one million times stronger than the Hiroshima bomb.


    What good would it do to blast the DS2? They have to destroy the main reactor, they can't do that by blasting from the surface. Second, can the rebels fire on the shield generator or Endor itself?
    Han and co had to get clearance for shield passage. In other words, the shield had to be lowered in order for them to be able to land on Endor.
    We know that shields exist that can cover areas of planets and those shields are strong enough to withstand bombardment from six ISD's and one SSD. I doubt the rebel ships can blast it down.
    So Endor and the generator is most likely protected by the shield so blasting from orbit won't work.


    The republic isn't interested in conquering Geonosis, they are after to destroy the droid army before it can be put to use. So bombing is the best strategy.
    The US dropped two nukes on Japan instead of trying to conquer it. Not pleasant and quite costly but they did it.

    Geonosis also didn't have any shields as then the republic ships could not have landed, nor could the Jedi have done either. Or Obi-wan or Padme earlier. No shield is even mentioned. So that excuse doesn't wash.

    In ESB, the empire planned for an orbital assault but the shield made that impossible.
    So they landed beyond the shield and travelled on ground towards the rebel base to knock down the shield so that they could land troops directly at the base.
    Also the Empire didn't use a Zerg rush, they sent their ground troops in heavily armored tanks, none of the rebel weapons could do anything to them. Only cables were of any use.
    This is nowhere near as wasteful as sending foot soldiers running directly at the enemy.
    Had the empire been as dense as the people on Geonosis and sent just troops alone, they would have been cut down by the rebel forces.


    By then the base was almost empty, most transports had left, we see only one transport a few X-wings and the MF. Bombing would serve no purpose. They do land troops plus Vader that enter the base.


    No at least two ISD's are shown being destroyed. Early in the battle, we see some X-Wings attack one ISD, destroying one of the domes and then the ship blows up.
    Later, behind Ackbar, we see one ISD go up in flames.


    The SSD had been in battle for quite while and all fire from all the rebel capital ships was directed at it. Also see above as to why rebel fighters couldn't fly down and attack the shield generator.


    Of course it is my opinion, what else could it be?
    Just like what you write is your opinion.


    Stealth would work just as well if Mace had two three other Jedi with him, plus a few more in the corridor. Dooku and the rest of the leaders were the target, the other Geo's didn't matter.
    Plus stealth would only work if the Jedi assume that the geonosians don't have any sensors and are thus unable to spot their ships. The rebels saw that the ISDs were coming.
    Plus the jedi knew that Obi-Wan had been captured sending a message from Geonosis.
    So they would know or at least assume that the geonosians would be on their guard as a spy had been caught contacting the republic.
    In all, the Jedi have no reason at all to assume that the geonosians wouldn't spot them before they even landed. So stealth is not practical.

    Don't think so. The Jedi hold the Idiot ball pretty much constantly in all three PT films, from TPM and onwards. And it is not just them, almost everyone in the film except Palpatine have to be an idiot at one time or another in order for his plan to work.

    The Imperials are dumb at times, no question. But they also show some competence at times.
    Ex in ANH, they are able to analyze the rebel attack and see what they were trying to do and that there could be a danger. But Tarkin was too arrogant to evacuate.

    The Jedi seemingly ignore the many questions around the clone army, they apparently never consider the Jango-Dooku connection. Mace doesn't warn his fellow Jedi once he learns that Palpatine is a sith and could thus order all the clones to kill the Jedi. Anakin, the most important Jedi alive is given over the a freshly minted Jedi Knight that have never trained a pupil before. The Jedi send only two Jedi to deal with the very big issue of planetary invasion and the possible return of the worst enemy, the Sith. Etc.


    Luke had no means of escape as far as Vader knew. He had control over the city and troops all over.
    The MF had no working hyperdrive and the SSD was in orbit. So even if Luke got out from the freezing chamber, he had nowhere to go.

    Even Jedi are not immune to blasters, if Yoda brought 20 soldiers and they opened fire on Dooku while Yoda attacked, if Dooku deals with the troopers, Yoda can cut him down, if not, the troopers can kill him.
    Plus the transports the troopers have have guns and missiles. Use that to destroy the chute the ship flew out of, trapping Dooku. Having 2-3 such transports right outside would have been a far bit more effective than Padme and her 5-6 troopers.

    [/QUOTE]


    The scene showed a small rebel ship vs a BIG imperial ship. This is visual storytelling.
    It shows us an example of the might of the empire and how small the rebels are compared to it.
    It told us a lot through images and without loads of dialogue.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
    KaleeshEyes, DrDre and DarthCricketer like this.
  7. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    The scene showed a small rebel ship vs a BIG imperial ship. This is visual storytelling.

    All it shows is that the Empire sent a big battleship to catch a small ship, that the Empire likes to use overkill like the DS.
    It shows us an example of the might of the empire and how small the rebels are compared to it.

    Except it is the only Rebel ship shown, too small of a sample pool to make that claim as TESB and ROTJ disproves your claim.
    It told us a lot through images and without loads of dialogue.

    All it tells us is the Empire sent a big ship after a little ship, nothing about the sizes of either side.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark[/quote]
     
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Slicer87,

    You are again writing your answer in the middle of my text.
    So I'll will answer some of your comments and try to make this a bit shorter.

    1) About RotS,
    At one point, Griev gives an order "Keep the ship IN ORBIT."
    A ship in orbit moves along the curvature of a planet but isn't trying to leave said planet.
    So this shows that griev's ship hasn't tried to leave as it is still in orbit and it also indicates that it isn't trying to leave as leaving must include breaking orbit.

    2) Obi-Wan and Anakin.
    You brought it up when I said that Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't seem like friends.
    You said that they loved each other and used this as an example.
    My response was that what Obi-Wan did wasn't a sign of love to me, it was the opposite.

    And Obi-Wan did kill Anakin directly as he sliced off his arm and both legs and left him to burn.
    If we go by your cat example, if someone did to their cat what Obi-Wan did to Anakin, cut off all of the cats legs and leave them to die. Is this a sign of love or even cowardice?
    To me it seems more like cruelty.

    3) Geonosis.
    The Jedi and stealth.
    In AotC Jango spots Obi-Wan's fighter on his sensors. In ESB, the imperials are able to detect Luke's X-wing approaching. In RotJ they spot the shuttle that Han and co were in.
    So sensors can detect small ships, not just big ones.
    Yes because at that time, the Geonosians would not be on alert for enemies.
    But he was captured while sending a message, so the Geonosians would know this.
    And even if they somehow don't, they know that a republic spy has been caught on their planet and could have alerted the senate about what they are doing. In all, they now have reason to be on high alert and the Jedi would know it.
    So stealth is not practical.

    Tactics.
    On Geonosis they use tanks and other things yes but they also have foot soldiers running at the enemy. This is very wasteful. On Hoth the imperials were smart enough to keep their troops INSIDE the tanks until the rebels were in full retreat.
    And on Hoth the empire didn't have the option to bombard the rebels but on Geonosis the republic did. That they didn't was very dumb.

    As for weapons on the republic ships.

    What does real life physics have to do with this?
    I've read somewhere that those republic ship in AotC had a firepower of 200 GT. That is 200 GIGA Tons from just one gun. More than enough to blast the TF ships or the surface.

    Also, TPM showed that the TF ships have plenty of guns and this was ten years before AotC.
    So armed capital ships did exist. So not only is the idea that the republic ships aren't armed rather silly, it also isn't supported by the films.
    That they developed better ships during the war, sure. But having no weapons on such ships is not smart.

    The Jedi,
    If they had 4-5 Jedi knight in the corridor, they could hold of the BD's long enough for Mace and his 3 friends to force a surrender from Dooku. Or kill him. If you are outnumbered, which the Jedi were and they knew it. Focus your power on one or two points, don't spread yourself out.

    As for stopping Dooku later,
    The gunships also have rockets which can be used at more targets than those on the ground.
    Anakin asks them to shoot down Dooku but is told they are out of rockets. Which is also bit dumb.
    They have guns on the ship plus blasters in their hands. Dooku is on a bike and thus unprotected. A single shot can kill him or shoot him down. But the plot needs them to be stupid so they are.
    And I didn't suggest that Padme bring troops, I suggested that Yoda do it.
    At that time, the droids forces were in full retreat so Dooku has far less forces to draw upon than Yoda does. Plus Yoda said that stopping Dooku from leaving was vital. So he has zero excuse not to bring troops with him. And then he would have a much bigger chance of stopping Dooku from leaving.

    4) Hoth, Endor and shields.
    And you accuse me of not having watched the films recently?
    In ANH, they make it very clear that the DS defenses is designed against a large scale assault but that a small fighter can penetrate the outer defense. The empire did not consider small fighters any threat or they would a tighter defense. This is clearly stated.

    As for the SSD, the ship had been under attack and so the shield that protected the dome was brought down, enabling the rebels to blow it up. And when that happened, the bridge shield went down. In all of SW, ships tend to have more than one shield. They have shields that protect various parts of the ship. Front, rear, the bridge etc. One shield can fail but others remain. Even the X-Wings and the MF have different shield that protect different parts of the ship.

    Also, in TPM, the TF ship has strong shields but apparently no shields over the entrance to the hangar bay, as Anakin is able to fly inside. This doesn't seem very smart. And they don't have doors to close them if needed? The TF ship were in battle, leaving an opening unshielded so that anyone fighter can fly in there and blow stuff up is rather dumb.

    Watch the film.
    They clearly say that the Hoth shield only cover and area of the planet and thus the imperials land outside the shield and walk towards the rebel base.
    On Geonosis, the republic land right in the middle of the Geo's forces, so clearly no shield there.

    Again, have you watched the film?
    Veers informs Vader of the shield and how it can't be blasted down so Vader orders him to land troops BEYOND the shield. Do you really need to see ships going down, landing in the snow and then following the walkers as they walk towards the base?
    The dialogue explains it well.
    And once the shield is brought down, the imperials are able to land. Hence why Vader is later seen in the rebel base.

    As for why they don't blast it or ignore it.
    Many rebel ships have escaped so if they can capture any stragglers they could get info from them.
    Plus Vader wants Luke so he goes down to see if he can find him or any info about him.

    As for only following the MF, once ships jump to hyperspace, it is hard if not impossible to track them unless the ship has a tracking device on it. So any rebel ships that have jumped away can't be followed. Plus Vader is after the MF as he either thinks Luke is on it or someone close to Luke is.

    As for Endor, the film makes it clear that Han and co had to get clearance to pass the shield and the shield had to be lowered in order for them to pass.
    So this is proof that the shield generator itself is protected by a shield and thus the rebels can't blast it.

    Not in the finished film so not relevant.
    And once shield is down, the rebel capital ships are busy with the ISDs and the SSD as they are more of threat than the DS2 at that moment. The DS2 has stopped shooting as their own ships are now in the line of fire. Which is what Lando's plan was about. Get close to the ISD's and prevent the DS2 from shooting.
    5) Competence of the Jedi/Empire.
    Wrong again, he says "WE've analyzed their attack and there is a danger.."
    So he wasn't alone.
    Also, in ESB, Piett realize the danger of the asteroid field and goes to Vader to say that they can't pursue any longer. But in both cases, their advice is ignored.
    Which is something that Tarkin, Vader and Palpatine have in common, they are overconfident and ignore the warnings or advice of those under them.

    Asking questions would not take long, like double checking the dates of Sifo-Dyas death and the order of the army. If this proves Obi-wan correct then they know that the army was ordered under a false name. Other questions they also totally ignore or don't even seem aware of.
    Who deleted the Kamino file? The Jango/Dooku connection.
    As for order 66, Mace knows that the clones will obey ANY order without question. So since Palpatine has the highest authority over the clones, he can order them to do anything.

    In all, to me the Jedi act far more dumb and clueless than the empire did and it bothered me a lot more and the PT films at times had an Idiot plot. That the characters has to be idiots in order for the plot to work.

    [/quote]

    You seem to miss the point, the scene in ANH showed, by visual means, the might of the empire vs that of the rebels. Big ship vs very small ship. That the rebels have other ship is missing the point of the scene. The rebels are smaller than the empire, this scene and others show it. The huge DS is another point to reinforces that. That the small X-wings are able to beat the much larger DS is another piece of this.
    Also the rebels have just one base, the empire has many. The rebels are a danger, as was said in the DS conference scene, but they are clearly much smaller than the empire.
    Plus this scene is in ANH, what is in ESB and RotJ is likewise irrelevant. RotJ shows clearly that the rebellion has grown as now they are many non-humans among them.

    Bye
    Old Stoneface
     
    DrDre, DarthCricketer and KaleeshEyes like this.
  9. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    You seem to miss the point, the scene in ANH showed, by visual means, the might of the empire vs that of the rebels. See above, again. Big ship vs very small ship. That the rebels have other ship is missing the point of the scene. The rebels are smaller than the empire, this scene and others show it. The huge DS is another point to reinforces that. That the small X-wings are able to beat the much larger DS is another piece of this.
    Also the rebels have just one base, the empire has many. The rebels are a danger, as was said in the DS conference scene, but they are clearly much smaller than the empire.
    Plus this scene is in ANH, what is in ESB and RotJ is likewise irrelevant. RotJ shows clearly that the rebellion has grown as now they are many non-humans among them.

    Just shows Lucas's budget grew to include more aliens.

    Bye
    Old Stoneface[/quote]
     
    QuangoFett and Aperture Science like this.
  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    @Slicer87

    You keep writing your answer in the middle of my text so this will be my last response here, plus we've kind of dragged the thread off-topic long enough.

    Some comments and corrections,

    Shields are never mentioned and since the republic ships land right among the seps forces, they clearly don't exist. And on Hoth the imperials could NOT fly under the rebel shield.
    Second, the enemy they fight are droids, so blowing them up will not kill many if any people.
    Third, if the droid army escapes, the war will spread, which will cause more deaths and more destruction. So stopping it here will save lives and money.
    Fourth, the clone army had gotten extensive training as was said on Kamino.
    Plus the Kamino people had made other clone armies in the past and the TF droid army in TPM was called "Battle hardened." So while a galactic war had not existed for 1000 years, smaller wars clearly had. So no excuse for not having an understanding of tactics.

    The rebels were in retreat before the generator was blown up.


    Which as I've said is stupid. Armed capital ships exist, if you have ships that are meant to carry troops towards a planet for battle, that ship has to be prepared to do battle. So having guns of their own is essential.

    Now you are assuming.


    Really, where in the film do they say that? Yoda says that stopping Dooku from escaping is vital, else he would attract more members to his cause.
    Did they even know that Dooku was a Sith at this time?

    Again, have you watched the film recently? Vader makes the choice to face Obi-wan alone. He is clearly very confident that he can take him. Plus he wants to deal with his master himself, to show him that he is strongest. Having some troopers take Obi-wan down would spoil that.
    Yoda has no such drive.
    And there were troops nearby. Once Luke starts shooting, we see lots of troopers come out behind Vader.

    Again no, we see examples of X-wings crashing into ISD's and not causing huge explosions, ergo the shields stopped them.
    The shield that protected the dome of the SSD had been brought down by rebel fire, allowing them to destroy it. This in turn took down the shield over the bridge. If the rebels could fly through the shields willy nilly, they could have crashed into it anytime. So as long as the shields are up, they will stop fighters.

    Again, what do you want? Long scenes of imperial ships flying to the surface, unloading troops plus walkers and then following the walkers as they walk to the rebel base?
    Really riveting cinema that.
    Plus Lucas didn't have an unlimited budget.
    And an other example of this is in the original version, Vader simply says "Bring my shuttle" and then we see him on the SSD. We don't need to see his shuttle fly in space up to the ship, we can figure that out. So the SE did a disservice here by having this spoon-fed to the audience.

    Wow you really haven't watched the OT is a long while have you?
    They make this very clear, Leia says that the shield will be lowered as the rebel ships fly up. But she adds that the shield will only be down a very short time so the X-wings must stick really close to their transports.

    Nope, the Hoth shield could not be brought down by the combined might of the SSD and six ISDs.
    Given this, the Endor shield can not be blasted down either. The rebel briefing makes this clear, they say that the shield has to be brought down if any attack is to be successful. So they can't use force here.

    The clone army is for the republic, thus the person that leads the republic has the highest authority over them. Since the clones obey orders without questions, they have to have a very clear chain of command and know who to take orders from and who to ignore. Otherwise they can't function. In the case of conflicting orders being given, the clones must know instantly who has the highest authority and obey this person. Here this is Palpatine. Plus he is a Sith and with this knowledge, Mace must know that the Sith were behind the clone army. Another reason to warn his fellow Jedi.

    You still keep missing the point of the scene. Through visual means this SCENE shows the might of the Empire vs the small rebels. This is also shown by how the rebel soldiers are gunned down and only a few troopers die.
    The opening crawl established both the rebels and the empire. Plus even the name, "Empire" indicates might and power. And the crawl also says that the rebels have won the FIRST victory over the Empire. This again indicates that the Empire is stronger.

    Only if you want to ignore how the story evolves and develops.
    IN ANH, the rebels are small and outnumbered. After the destruction of the DS, more worlds begin to join them and thus in RotJ, the rebellion have now grown a lot. They have more ships, bigger ships and are now moving more in the open. Vader knew that the rebel fleet was gathering. In ESB and ANH, the rebels stayed hidden.

    The end, back to the topic.

    Bye,
    Old Stoneface
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Funny how the opening shot of ROTS does exactly the same thing. [face_peace]
     
  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Yes.

    On top of that the "visual dialogue" of the PT is not co-incidentally far beyond what could conceivably done in the OT. It's not like Lucas didn't think about doing it. It simply wasn't possible to do in a realistic way due to the resources available and what technology could do.
     
  13. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    This is why in TESB he didn't have snowtroopers escorting ATATs to prevent rebels from grapple hooking up the bellies to plant charges like Luke did. Or have snowtroopers firing anti air missiles at the snowspeeders. The FX was not advanced enough yet. By AOTC he could show a proper major ground battle.

    Vimes just keeps circling the same exact points over and over and I am tired of refuting the same exact points over and over like Groundhog's Day. It seems many still apply double standards to these films, complaining about perceived flaws in the PT while ignoring or even praising similar issues in the OT.

    They don't land right along the CIS bases, they are some distance away which indicates they flew under the sheilds before landing, much like how rebel Snowspeeders could fly under their base's sheilds which disproves your argument. Since the Republic ships clearly lacked large turbo laser batteries they likely could not bombard the CIS anyway. You act like they landed right by the CIS ships and bases, they didn't.


    No it is not stupid. Modern US ships are greatly downsized from older warships of WW2, except aircraft carriers which rely mainly on the aircraft they carry for both attacks and defense. Not many modern warships have guns anywhere near the size of WW2 era ships. Before WW2, many navies were downsized because of peacetime. After the war started and got worse, many navies built larger and more powerful ships like the Iowa class.

    As Yoda says, he senses the darkside in Dooku, really.
     
  14. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Excuse the double post as I timed out on the edit.

    Nope, they lacked heavy gun turrets like SDs. See, no big turrets.

    [​IMG]

    Vs SD with big gun turrets.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    That is quite a big assumption with no evidence to back it up. All it shows is that a X wing crashed into a non vital area of a SD causing minimal damage. In ROTS, we see a ship crash into a SD causing a crater but no explosion, therefore ships can crash into hulls without exploding and not a indicator of proper shielding. ROTJ showed rebel fighters flying willy nilly around the SSD's superstructure before the bridge shields were knocked down, as well as TIEs flying around rebel ships willy nilly, such as a TIE crashing into a MC cruiser hull.

    So they had a shield protecting another shield generator, and once that shield was knocked out the other shield generator was knocked out. This doesn't make a lick of sense. This would mean a shield generator could not protect itself and need another shield generator to protect it which is unlike on Hoth and on Naboo where once you get though a shield dome you can blow up its generator. So going by this, how did rebel fighters make it though the bridge's shield to knock out its generator, its circle logic to attempt to explain it. Your view of the SSD shields would open the high possibility of the Endor shield being unable to protect itselt, enspecally since it is a dish projecting a sphere around the DS2 rather than projecting a dome over itself like the Rebel and Gungan shields. In other words, the Rebel and Gungan shields are like lanterns which light themselves and the local area while the Imp Endor shield is like a flashlight which can't light itself, only other things. This begs the question of why Rebel ships didn't attempt to attack the Endor base. Even if we assume the base was also protected, but Rebels were still able to walk to it, then Rebel fighters could have flown down under the shield like the Snowspeeders on Hoth and attack the Imp base.

    I suppose it could be like in Dune where "the slow blade penetrates the shield," such as slow B1s going though the Gungan shields which deflected high speed shells from the AATs. Perhaps slow flying fighters can go though some shields, but this is never explained in the OT. Thought out the SW films, ships can fly though shields whenever the plot demands it.

    Just applying the same standard you treat the PT towards the OT, that is what I want. Just a few seconds of landing ships leaving the SDs would explain enough. It would have been an interesting scene. So in the OT, it is ok it leaves blanks for you to figure out but not ok for the PT to do the same? Quite a double standard there.

    So the Imps could simply direct fire at any rebel ships they see flying up, blow them away and reach down the sheild opening. Quite a missed opportunity there. How come none of the ATATs attempted to knock out the ion canon? Again, why didn't the SDs or TIEs give chase after the rebel ships. Why did they let many, if not all of them escape into hyperspace? It seems like they only made one try and gave up.

    Except the rebels at Endor had 26 ships at least vs a mere 6 of Imp ships at Hoth. Heck they could have kept on the DS's backside and bombard the crap out of it until the sheild buckled. Also, if Vader was after Luke, it would be stupid to bombard the rebel base and risk killing him.
    Depends how the Republic is setup. The US armed forces loyalty is not to the president but to the constitution of the US. They pledge to protect it, even from the president, in theory at least. The clones obey orders from the Jedi, fooling them into thinking they are loyal to them and the Republic, not to one man for life. The Jedi are the generals leading the GAR, they were part of the chain of command, they did not know the clones had ultimate loyalty to Palps.

    I am not missing the point of anything, you are simply make a assumption based on scantly evidence and a tiny sample pool.

    They are smaller and outnumbered though out the OT, by how much in each film is left vague until ROTJ. TESB and ROTJ had bigger budgets to show more diversity and the PT had bigger budgets yet and better FX to further increase diversity in the films.
     
  15. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Sorry but I timed out again, quite annoying. If the mods could please delete the two previous posts of mine.


    1. Because they didn't spoonfeed it to you doesn't mean something is not there, you are using appeal to ignorance. They don't land right along the CIS bases, they are some distance away which indicates they flew under the shields before landing, much like how rebel Snowspeeders could fly under their base's shields which disproves your argument. Since the Republic ships clearly lacked large turbo laser batteries they likely could not bombard the CIS anyway. You act like they landed right by the CIS ships and bases, they didn't. How can the Rebels fly under their Shields but not the Imps?



    2. Not just droids, you also have Geo warriors and organic CIS staff. Not to mention there are GEO hives and mounds right by the CIS shipyards, bombarding the yards up could cause massive collateral damage to civilian Geos. Hoth doesn't have civilians to worry about.

    3. Not at the expense of wiping out a whole species and killing lots of civilians, they are not the Empire yet especially with Jedi still in their ranks. Hoth lacked native intelligent life.

    4. Training is useful but not a substitute for experience, as was said in From Russia With Love. It isn't a lack of understanding as a lack of experience to know how to implement them and even to think outside the box.

    No it is not stupid. Modern US ships are greatly downsized from older warships of WW2, except aircraft carriers which rely mainly on the aircraft they carry for both attacks and defense. Not many modern warships have guns anywhere near the size of WW2 era ships. Before WW2, many navies were downsized because of peacetime. After the war started and got worse, many navies built larger and more powerful ships like the Iowa class.

    As Yoda says, he senses the darkside in Dooku, really.


    That is quite a big assumption with no evidence to back it up. All it shows is that a X wing crashed into a non vital area of a SD causing minimal damage. In ROTS, we see a ship crash into a SD causing a crater but no explosion, therefore ships can crash into hulls without exploding. ROTJ showed rebel fighters flying willy nilly around the SSD's superstructure before the bridge sheilds were knocked down, as well as TIEs flying around rebel ships willy nilly, such as a TIE crashing into a MC cruiser.

    Nope, they lacked heavy gun turrets like SDs. See, no big turrets.

    [​IMG]

    Vs SD with big gun turrets.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]







    That is quite a big assumption with no evidence to back it up. All it shows is that a X wing crashed into a non vital area of a SD causing minimal damage. In ROTS, we see a ship crash into a SD causing a crater but no explosion, therefore ships can crash into hulls without exploding and not a indicator of proper shielding. ROTJ showed rebel fighters flying willy nilly around the SSD's superstructure before the bridge shields were knocked down, as well as TIEs flying around rebel ships willy nilly, such as a TIE crashing into a MC cruiser hull.

    So they had a shield protecting another shield generator, and once that shield was knocked out the other shield generator was knocked out. This doesn't make a lick of sense. This would mean a shield generator could not protect itself and need another shield generator to protect it which is unlike on Hoth and on Naboo where once you get though a shield dome you can blow up its generator. So going by this, how did rebel fighters make it though the bridge's shield to knock out its generator, its circle logic to attempt to explain it. Your view of the SSD shields would open the high possibility of the Endor shield being unable to protect itselt, enspecally since it is a dish projecting a sphere around the DS2 rather than projecting a dome over itself like the Rebel and Gungan shields. In other words, the Rebel and Gungan shields are like lanterns which light themselves and the local area while the Imp Endor shield is like a flashlight which can't light itself, only other things. This begs the question of why Rebel ships didn't attempt to attack the Endor base. Even if we assume the base was also protected, but Rebels were still able to walk to it, then Rebel fighters could have flown down under the shield like the Snowspeeders on Hoth and attack the Imp base.

    I suppose it could be like in Dune where "the slow blade penetrates the shield," such as slow B1s going though the Gungan shields which deflected high speed shells from the AATs. Perhaps slow flying fighters can go though some shields, but this is never explained in the OT. Thought out the SW films, ships can fly though shields whenever the plot demands it.





    Just applying the same standard you treat the PT towards the OT, that is what I want. Just a few seconds of landing ships leaving the SDs would explain enough. It would have been an interesting scene. So in the OT, it is ok it leaves blanks for you to figure out but not ok for the PT to do the same? Quite a double standard there.




    So the Imps could simply direct fire at any rebel ships they see flying up, blow them away and reach down the sheild opening. Quite a missed opportunity there. How come none of the ATATs attempted to knock out the ion canon? Again, why didn't the SDs or TIEs give chase after the rebel ships. Why did they let many, if not all of them escape into hyperspace? It seems like they only made one try and gave up.





    Except the rebels at Endor had 26 ships at least vs a mere 6 of Imp ships at Hoth. Heck they could have kept on the DS's backside and bombard the crap out of it until the sheild buckled. Also, if Vader was after Luke, it would be stupid to bombard the rebel base and risk killing him.

    Depends how the Republic is setup. The US armed forces loyalty is not to the president but to the constitution of the US. They pledge to protect it, even from the president, in theory at least. The clones obey orders from the Jedi, fooling them into thinking they are loyal to them and the Republic, not to one man for life. The Jedi are the generals leading the GAR, they were part of the chain of command, they did not know the clones had ultimate loyalty to Palps.


    I am not missing the point of anything, you are simply make a assumption based on scantly evidence and a tiny sample pool.




    They are smaller and outnumbered though out the OT, by how much in each film is left vague until ROTJ. TESB and ROTJ had bigger budgets to show more diversity and the PT had bigger budgets yet and better FX to further increase diversity in the films.