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Discussion JJ Abrams directing Episode IX Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by 2Cleva, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Resistance Trooper 2

    Resistance Trooper 2 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 11, 2018
    Sure, Rey overcame a "weakness," but that inner weakness had little effect on her ability to succeed or fail in the story.

    Her involvement with Kylo is just as much of a temptation for him as it is her, and it doesn't present much of a block for her because when the times comes for Kylo to make her choose, her choice is easy.

    Her temptation leads her to Snoke, and we can look at this as opportunity just as much as being captured. In fact, it's Kylo who seems more tempted here in his choice between Snoke and Rey.

    If Rey's listing rocks at the end is supposed to signify growth, then she shouldn't have been able to do it earlier with Luke, and so easily.

    Rian and JJ don't seem to understand that inner weakness must lead to outer weakness: to unsuccessful heroic action. But with Rey, this is rarely the case. And this robs her arc from emotional punch when she grows internally and takes dramatic action.
     
    Qui-Riv-Brid and Rodie like this.
  2. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    Rey lifting the boulders at the end was symbolic, not the ability itself. It meant she didn't need to fly to hidden planets to find a hero to rally and assist resistance. She spent her life thus far waiting and searching--for parents to rescue her, for Luke to be a teacher and hero for the Resistance.

    It was the self-actualization that she didn't have to search any more. She was the hero they were looking for.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  3. Resistance Trooper 2

    Resistance Trooper 2 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 11, 2018
    Sure, but nothing really stopped her from heroing in TFA. This was never sufficiently set up by JJ or Rian.

    Rey defeats Kylo in TFA. She's ALREADY the heroine.

    She goes to Luke to train. Nothing's stopping her from wanting to hero.

    And yet her great success at the end of TLJ is being a hero?

    There's a reason this falls flat for people. It's not a sufficient dramatic conflict.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 and Qui-Riv-Brid like this.
  4. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
  5. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    a trilogy about midchlorians. Hard pass.
     
    The Regular Mustache likes this.
  6. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 30, 2014
    Despite what some might suggest here, George has far from hin peak as a story teller. TPM and AOTC have aged poorly. ROTS remain in my top three though.

    But yep, quite happy with JJ coming back.
     
  7. Resistance Trooper 2

    Resistance Trooper 2 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 11, 2018
    I notice the author and the posters here ignore the Whills part. Many fans have always wanted to learn more about them, including me. I would happily accept more Midichlorians than the shallow, repetitive stuff we're getting now.

    LFL made a huge mistake not including more of Lucas's ideas. In exchange, we have virtually no story.
     
    eko32eko7 likes this.
  8. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 1, 2014
    I don’t necessarily like the concept of the Whills controlling the universe by tapping into the Force differently than everyone else. It feels too conspiratorial and overly sci-fi for my tastes. I much prefer the idea that the Force, as an impersonal energy field, merely nudges things along.
     
  9. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    I know this is all in context to Lucas' original idea for the ST. But didn't the Disney era storytellers decided to quietly sweep midichlorians under the rug? I can't remember. But my god, no.
     
  10. Resistance Trooper 2

    Resistance Trooper 2 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 11, 2018
    Hard to judge the story about the Whills without knowing what it is. It's a shame we won't find out.

    I'm hoping more and more Lucas can release his treatments at some point. They should be judged for themselves, not second or third hand.
     
    eko32eko7 likes this.
  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Makes me feel worser that it wasn't done.

    Hardly. A trilogy that includes the actual Luke actually training "Rey", the grandchildren, the Solo grandson turning to the Dark side in the trilogy and so on.

    No they didn't they are just there as they always were. As ever they are in the cells of all living beings. So midi-chlorians are everywhere you look in Star Wars nevermind on the symbiotic relationship philosophical levels which started in ANH.


    Which again is the "midi-chlorians" ethic at work.

    As for Rey she didn't spend her life searching for Luke to teach her or to be a hero. She simply found out in a few hours that she was for whatever reasons yet to be explained.

    Exactly. We already knew from the very start she was going to be the hero. Which is fine but the problem is that's really all she's been from the start. It simply happens and not because of anything she herself actually does. The only thing she has to do is to accept that she is one. That effectively happened at the end of TFA. TLJ didn't do anything but reaffirm that but then bizarrely also effectively made her secondary in the story to Ren.

    So on the one hand she's secondary to Ren but he is next to useless against her as a villain. So ultimately both are diminished.

    So it goes back to how is JJ possibly going to make a story with actual stakes for either in one movie with no support? Yes things will happen but with no momentum from a build-up over the previous two movies it'll have to be a standing start.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  12. Qui-Gon Gin

    Qui-Gon Gin Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    IX is stuck at the end of two clashing stories. Basically, it's starting from scratch so to speak. The biggest challenge, is taking these left-over ingredients (what plot points are left from VII and VIII), making that week night dinner (putting enough into a 2 1/2 hour movie), and putting enough flavor into it (room to add onto what has been established), so it turns into something completely different than what it started as (a movie that fits yet does new amazing things).
    If Abrams brings Snoke back.
    "Why is he back?, Who is this powerful being?".
    The only logical choice IMO would be....."My Sith name is.....Darth Plagueis", (he had a throw away line in ROTS, but it's really the only thing to build off since TLJ threw "Snoke" aside) in which new fans will be like
    "huh??...whos this??",
    and basically you'll need a George Of The Jungle narrator to bring things up to speed.....and that isn't happening, LOL.

    If you go with the all of a sudden full 100% "Evil Kylo", it will feel out of place with the other two movies, so it would make sense to have the next big baddie....Snoke....who was already full of evil goodness....but.....refer to above.......

    Rey......from what I hear, The Last Jedi takes everything mysterious about her from TFA, and basically turns her into a regular individual. So we either go with what TLJ has done, or cram a "got ya!....you really are special", into a 2 1/2 hour movie.

    In the end.....I do not envy Abrams with the task of not only finishing the ST....but finishing up a 9 part saga.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  13. Rodie

    Rodie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2014
    IMO Kylo has to the shown as the big bad in 9, more twisted and seemingly pure evil and very powerful at the beginning of the movie. Hux, the KoR and any FO officers around him need to be shown to FEAR him.

    Several years have passed since TLJ, and Kylo seems like he's on Snoke level of power or close to it, but still volatile. This is the best way to raise the stakes.

    And yet, there's still this glint of conflict within him...And beyond all odds, that glint of conflict is exploited by Rey (and Ghost Luke) at the end of the movie and Ben is either turned back to the good or killed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  14. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Not sure I agree. Luke never really had that "outer weakness." The closest he comes to that is that Vader schools him in lightsaber on Bespin, but that's kind of beside the point, since really, he was outclassed there, rather than demonstrating a weakeness. Luke's "failure" in Bespin is mostly about his overconfidence, though he resists falling to the Darkside. Similarly, Rey's failure was her naive belief she could redeem Ben. I don't think that story point is any further advanced by some other kind of failure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  15. Resistance Trooper 2

    Resistance Trooper 2 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 11, 2018
    I think Luke did grow in power over the trilogy as he grows in wisdom and faith in the Force. We don't see him defeating anyone with a saber in a ANH like Rey. Instead, he's able to do pull off an incredible shot very clearly because of his faith in the Force. So the internal there allows for external success. That's excellent cause and effect; great storytelling.

    Similarly, in ESB, we see that looks overconfidence and rush to save his friends leads to his external defeat with Vader. It's not merely that he's outclassed, although that's a literal element, but the point is that he's outclassed due to his internal decision, his mistake, to rush away from training -- which is much more than just sword training in ESB, but all of Yoda's internal training about control.

    In ROTJ, we see that Luke has mastered internal control of his emotions and that's why he's ready to take on Vader and the Emperor. And he ultimately has external success through his ability to control his anger and lay his saber down.

    Compare all this with Rey whose internal challenges, even when present, never directly affect her ability to engage in successful action.

    For example, the end of TFA would have been more emotionally resonant if JJ and Kasdan had set up that Rey wasn't willing to embrace the Force due to some internal problem, which she overcomes at the end. Instead, she just has a let the Force in moment and it's just a matter of remembering what Maz said to her rather than her overcoming some internal block.

    This is similar to how easy it is for Rey to fight Kylo at the end of TLJ. It's just a matter of her realizing he's not returning to the light; there's nothing internal seriously stopping her from fighting him or defeating him.

    It's poorly written drama, and the main reason for this is likely that the writers don't agree on the character or understand them well enough to create a powerful arc. The best arcs always show a causal relationship between the inner life and the ability to take successful action.

    One reason this is powerful is because it's how things work in our own lives. If you or I have a major psychological block/internal conflict that stops us from moving forward in our journey, then overcoming that and progressing is huge.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  16. Rodie

    Rodie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2014
    ^ I wish I could like that post a hundred times @Resistance Trooper 2. Great points and analysis.

    It could be argued that Rey seeing Finn injured, caring for him deeply in that moment, and therefore internally accepting him (and the Resistance) as her new family and no longer seeking the parents who abandoned her, allowed her to tap into the Force and call the lightsaber into her hand.

    Rey's conversation with Maz at least hinted at overcoming this internal obstacle was her way of changing her life externally on the Jedi path...

    The internal overcoming of her misplaced longing for her long-gone parents allowed her to externally take her first steps to becoming a Jedi and accept her role in fighting "The Monster" of Kylo.... "These are your first steps," Obi-Wan tells her in the vision, and then she took them.

    Unfortunately, there was no internal/external progression of her character like that in TLJ. It was much more disconnected.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  17. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 7, 2017
    Something stopped her for about 14 years. She stagnated on a junkyard planet for 14 years and it wasn't because being a scavenger is just so awesome - she stayed and eked out a miserable existence because she was so hung up on the people who abandoned her. It took being forced into an adventure she didn't ask for to turn her into the hero that she was meant to be.

    Huh? Luke kept ignoring her and refusing to give her the Jedi training she wanted. Eventually she gets two lessons, but the rest of that time? She's preoccupied with her past and having secret conversations with the enemy. Just about everything in TLJ was impeding her efforts to become a Jedi.
     
    Cave of Erised likes this.
  18. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 16, 2015
    About 6 weeks left before JJ starts shooting ep9... :)

    Wether you like or hate TLJ and whatever you think about the stakes by the end of the movie it all depends on the script. And it's JJ's and Terrio's job to make what they think is the best script. Some of us might be disappointed, others might be delighted...whatever yout thoughts on TFA and TJL.

    As for Kylo Ren i see 2 options:

    -If he's redeemed he wont die (if he will it's too close to Vader's fate. i dont think JJ wants to claim the rehash tag again) . Being redeemed he could either help the good guys towards the end of the movie or right at the end (against a coming bigger threat?)
    -my feeling: will die unredeemed BUT as he prepares to give the final blow to Rey, something will emotionally hurt him (Ghost luke? Leia's voice?) which will destabilize his attack, resulting in Rey blocking the blade and giving him a deathly hit with her lightsaber. At first shocked and angry that he's mortally wound when he was just about to win he finally comes to accept as he realizes his own death is his only way out from the pain and loneliness that consumed his life. Like a small, subconscious acknowledgement that he chose the wrong path.

    Obviously the last one is too precise to indeed happen but i think this angle has a likely chance to happen in some variation. Ambiguous, tragic and better sweet. Basically Kylo Ren dying unredeemed but with a subconscious "Ben" admitting his defeat and death is for the best.
     
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  19. UK Sullustian

    UK Sullustian Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 1998
    Turns out hard work, learning, studying and mentorship is irrelevant. All you need to do is want something and it happens. You don't need to strive. Just want.

    Strikes me as Rey is closer to the Dark Side than Kylo. That would be an interesting twist.
     
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  20. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    The "risk" that JJ could take is killing off Kylo unredeemed, letting us know it IS sometimes too late for some folks. That would be a risk that would have rewards IF Rey is indeed a Skywalker. I think Rey is a Skywalker but doesn't find out until near the end of the film. Luke refused to kill Vader. Obi-Wan refused to kill Anakin. Perhaps that is where the problem was in the first place. Maybe Rey realizes that she HAS to kill Kylo and does so reluctantly (Wolverine/Phoenix but done MUCH better).
     
    lovethedarkside likes this.
  21. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 30, 2014
    I could see option two happening. IMO a character that follows the arc Anakin and Ben do, can only be redeem through self sacrifice, as their sins are too extreme for them to be forgiven by either the GFFA or the audience.

    So I could see Kylo dying as a good person, but dying anyway. Or they could go for a more mature approach as the one you are describing.
     
  22. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    You mean like closing your eyes while flying a fighter ship you've had all of ten minutes of experience flying and managing to fire a torpedo into an opening the size of a tailpipe?

    Yeah, who needs training. Just have someone tell you to "Use the Force!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  23. UK Sullustian

    UK Sullustian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1998
    He was literally created by the Force. That is the entire point of the saga. If you mean Luke, he bulls-eyed womprats with his T16 back home. They weren't much bigger than two meters. That combined with a bit of the Force...? Gave him that power.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  24. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 20, 2001
    Anakin Skywalker was created by the Force. Luke and Leia were made the old fashioned way.

    But I love how there are excuses why Luke can suddenly use the Force without training yet Rey gets criticized endlessly.
     
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  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Complicated characters are more interesting to me. Keeping Kylo alive and redeemed would leave the door open of writers to explore h
    Admittedly I was a little hung up on this for a while until I accepted that either 1) some people are inherently gifted, and/or 2) despite what TLJ says she might have that Skywalker blood running through her veins.

    I do have to admit that option one does kinda feel like a "because reasons" explanation but people being born with amazing talent is a thing that happens in the real world so why can't be true in the fictional world too?