ST JJ Abrams directing Episode IX Discussion

I honestly thought Rey's story in TLJ was about putting the past behind her. We saw Finn's story begin in TFA and end with him making his choice to join the rebels in TLJ after having to choose between DJ and Rose. We saw Kylo's struggles through both TFA and TLJ and now he's made his choice to take Snoke's place instead of join Rey, and Rey made her choice at the end of TLJ after struggling with finding where she belonged in TFA and most of TLJ by not choosing Luke or Kylo. Everyone chose their path in TLJ. Even Poe had to choose between Leia and Holdo. Now JJ has to explain how it affected them and how it will end for them.

 

https://www.interbridge.com/lineups.html

 

Let's hope he can reveal when filming starts.

 

Unfortunately he wasn't on Corden's show for whatever reason.

 

Actually as Lucas says he intended we don't know what created Anakin. The Force, the midi-chlorians in response to the prophecy or Plagueis or some combination thereof. What we do know is that he IS the Chosen One because he chose to be the Chosen One.

But Luke can't suddenly use the Force without training. That doesn't happen (not in any substantive way) that is not basically in line with someone who is obviously Force sensitive, has great potential and then with even the basic lessons and guidance from Obi-Wan (who instructs Luke during the Death Star battle) can fire a torpedo which is something he could already do anyway. ANH takes great pains to set up everything that Luke does as being something not unknown save for the Force itself.

Rey is an entirely different case as has been gone over ad nauseam suffice to say that if Luke in ANH had no Obi-Wan and by the end of the movie had not only destroyed the Death Star (after never even having flown any ship ever before) but also picked up a Lightsaber and defeated Darth Vader then there would be a viable comparison.

 

Seriously, now is this any different?

We don't know Rey's origins. For all we know the Force, midicholorians, etc choice to create Rey to meet Kylo Ren's darkness at the appropriate time. As Luke stated, she has off the chart abilities that scare him (much like Kylo Ren.) I don't understand how Anakin and his progeny can get this pass on Instant Force Abilities, Just Add Water while Rey will be scrutinized for any innate talent she has. She clearly had great potential as well. She had about as much guidance thus far as Luke did in ANH.

While you may think that ANH set things up to explain Luke's natural abilities, the narrative Luke puts forth in TLJ points out that Rey is one of those off the chart abilities on par with Kylo, Anakin, himself in that "I've seen this one time before..." speech.

The only difference is she isn't a Skywalker.

Perhaps the Force was in play when it came to Rey as well.

Because when you line it up, Rey's origins and discovery of abilities are not all that different from Luke. Both were more or less self-learned, innate and likely there longer than either realized.

 

I don't understand this idea that in order to have the Force or be powerful in the Force you have to be a Skywalker. Because that leaves out people like Mace Windu, Yoda, Palpatine, and Dooku.

We seriously have canon characters who are stupid powerful who aren't Skywalkers--and all Rey has done in two movies is make things float and control people's minds--the only two powers she knows how to use consciously (since all Force users seem to be able to unconsciously channel the Force in different ways).

 

Because that is the traditional mythical story telling trope... see Jack Jack, or in fact all of the kids of the incredibles family.

Superpowerful Genetics

 

And that can't apply to Rey because...?

 

Exactly.

 

I don't think using the standard of previous movies will work moving forward. Even if Lucas remained in charge things would have progressed. This is the same debate that back in the day when people wondered how Yoda could do this and that, how could Anakin be that powerful compared to Luke, or the ships look that different when only 30 years separated one trilogy from the other.

Back then the "excuse" was that the Jedi were on their prime, and the galaxy was far from becoming the dark place the Empire made of it in the OT. That was an explanation. Some fans bought it and some other did not.

Now the theme is that the Force has awakened and, as Kylo Ren, being a Skywalker, falls more and more into the dark side, the Force counters back and choses Rey, who becomes as powerful as Kylo.

 

Quick question: if the Force is so concerned about evil taking over the galaxy why does it only choose one person to match Kylo Ren's power? Why not make Broom Boy and a boat load of other rando's as powerful as Rey and end this drama ASAP? If the answer is that the Force rules say that only one person can be activated on the same power level as their opponent I'm jumping out the window.

 

How does that work for the balance to be achieved? Not that is had to be that deeply covered IMO. It is just a plot device to justify why Rey and not the neighbour is the one Kylo has to face. Besides, the fact that broom boy appears at the end of TLJ probably means the Force has not only awakened on Rey.

 

Uhh, because if there were a bunch of Rey Randos running around then there would have to be a bunch of Kylo Randos running around. That's how balance works. It happened with Anakin and Palpatine, now it's happening with Rey and Kylo.

 

I find it interesting that in TFA and TLJ we had 2 darkside users and 2 lightside users, and once Snoke died, Luke followed. This left us a perfect balance.

 

This is something staring us square in the face. TFA isn't as much about the awakening in an adept (Rey.) It's really about the Force itself awakening from slumber and trying to reset and balance itself. Rey seems to be its instrument.

 

That's what I thought Snoke meant when he asked Kylo if he sensed an awakening. Rey had not used her powers yet. I wonder if the Force awoke because of Rey's decision to take the Falcon and escape Jakku with Finn?

 

When we say "controlling" does that necessarily imply conscious intent or could this be more of an instinct or reflex at work? My impression of the Whills has been the latter. While they may have a "nature" to them, I never understood them to be sentient in such a way as to be "conspiratorial". This was reinforced, to me, by the idea that they require guardians.

Further, the Force is an energy field. However, an energy field must have a source. The Whills (or midichlorians as designated science in TGFFA) aren't, in and of themselves, that energy field described as "The Force". It is their ubiquitous presence within life throughout the galaxy that creates this energy field.

Perhaps I'm wrong. I am quite bummed it seems we will never know.

THIS.

Since I walked out of TFA I have leaned toward the idea that Rey will turn because her "talent" coupled with her lack of guidance is perfectly inline with Yoda's description of the darkside being easier, more seductive. I cant reconcile Rey's "progression" in the context of that quote as heading in any other direction.

Luke and Anakin, on the other hand, are established as having "talent" (read: innate force sensitivity) which manifests itself in ways which pertain directly to the events of the corresponding movie's climax.

In ANH, Luke's talent is established in a few lines of dialog which explain how/why he is an adept pilot:

• "I understand you have become quite a good pilot yourself" - Obi Wan
• "It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-sixteen back home. They're not much bigger than two meters. - Luke
• "Sir, Luke is the best bushpilot in the outer rim territories. - Biggs
• "Just like Beggar's Canyon, back home" - Luke

Luke is then able to channel all of his experience back home through his new, limited knowledge of the Force and destroy the Death Star.

Anakin's talent in his youth is established in a few lines of dialog in ANH, ROTJ and TPM:

• "He was the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior." - Obi Wan in ANH
• "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." - Obi Wan in ROTJ
• "You must have Jedi reflexes if you race Pods." - Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM
• "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait." - Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM

Anakin is shown to race a pod and win. He is then able to take out the droid control ship, with the assistance of autopilot and R2D2. Granted, Anakin has had no "training" outside of his experience as a pod racer, which was facilitated by his innate Force sensitivity, or "talent". I have reservations about GL's choices here, but the fact of the matter is that GL did make an attempt at establishing Anakin's abilities before the climax.

First, speaking for myself, I dont criticize Rey; I criticize those who wrote Rey. Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "excuses", but it's not that Luke or Anakin can "suddenly" use the Force. They were using the Force their entire lives and developing skills which were augmented and enhanced by their innate talent.

I would love to assign this progression to Rey, but the name of the movie is "The Force Awakens". If the Force was "asleep" prior to us encountering Rey, how would she have developed Force augmented skills?

Let's put that aside, though, and say that she has always been Force sensitive and just didn't realize it. The issue I have is that the writers do not establish this anywhere within the films. I find this to be supremely disappointing. As it is, I'm sitting here, wanting to like Rey, but, a t this point, have no real reason. She seems like she could be a hero, maybe... if they ever bothered to develop her character. Again, though, I come back to the idea that perhaps she's not the hero and that is why her path is shown to be so easy. It is hard to rule that out based on anything in the films.

"George Lucas defines balance as the removal of the toxicity of the dark side, a la the removal of toxins from blood. You return things to balance by eliminating whatever is causing them to go out of whack; thus, you keep the Force in balance by making the light side pure and free of the dark side."

 

I don't either but for some reason that is apparently seen as some revelation in the ST by the film-makers especially RJ. Nevermind the over 1,000 generations of Jedi who weren't Skywalkers.

In two movies Rey has gone from nothing to above Kylo Ren in a few days with Luke and Snoke power next on the list with no training or understanding of anything happening to her.

This has never happened in over 1000 generations of Jedi and nothing ever seen in any Force user of any kind ever before not even the Chosen One.

So the mystery is why is Rey this super-powerful of all-time Force user who is exponentially getting stronger. By the next movie (if it takes place several years later) then no one from Sidious to Yoda at their heights could oppose her. Maybe only Anakin as Darth Vader without the Mustafar injuries and even then he would have needed time and training to get there.

 

Honest question: would people be less critical of Rey if her last name was Skywalker?

And is the backlash against her because her hella powerful abilities make the Skywalkers less special?

Because I don't have a problem with someone with equal abilities to match those of the Skywalkers. Quite frankly I love the idea of once again having force users that aren't related. As much as I wasn't a fan of PT, I loved that there were a lot of other very powerful Force users in that era.

 

My guess is, had Rey been a Skywalker, it would have been seen as the natural progression of the bloodline.

 

The short answer to your question, from my point of view, is yes. Again, though, I'm not critical of Rey; I am critical of how she has been written.

If the only detail changed was that Rey was a Skywalker, but no additional effort was made to establish her progression as a Force wielder, I would be equally critical of how she has been written. Anakin and Luke's progressions are established and both of them are Skywalkers.

Further, to me, its not an issue of the amount of power Rey has. My primary issue surrounds the speed and ease with which she is shown to progress, sans guidance, after it has been established, in universe, that a distinguishing characteristic of the dark side is that it is easier. I don't know how anyone could have it any easier, in terms of Force aptitude, than Rey. Even Yoda had an actual master/mentor at some point.

 

Yes because then we would know her origins and at least have some actual background as to why she can do what she can do. There would still be a mystery element if everything else was the same but the actual explanation that would still have to come in IX would have the basis that she comes from this line of powerful Force users that originates somewhere in the Force itself.

It's because it undermines everything we know about the way beings progress in the Force EVER from Anakin, Luke, Yoda, Mace and every Jedi ever not to mention all the Sith and every other Force user we know of.

It's not equal but far beyond and not just the Skywalkers but every Force being ever as above. In the Lucas' canon the next level for Rey would be Force beings like the Father, Son and Daughter. There is no reason to think that Rey won't grow in power exponentially. If she doesn't and just stops then that will have to be explained as well. How can she go from nowhere to virtual Jedi Knight in less than a week but suddenly stop in progression so that a month later she's no further? By then she should easily be past Luke, Yoda, Sidious etc.

Well there were various relations in Lucas' story like the Jedi sisters from TCW. The Force seems to run strong in certain families even though the Jedi don't have children (if they did then obviously those children would also be strong in the Force).

Rey is as far as we know a totally isolated case of the Force possibly directing her creation and destiny in a specifically crafted way that as far as we can tell might involved her having no free will to choose her destiny.

Maybe JJ is going to use some part of Lucas' Whills ideas from his outlines for Rey?

 

If Rey were Ray, this conversation wouldn't be happening.