ST JJ Abrams directing Episode IX Discussion

I just had a chance to re-read my post, and I made an error. I meant to convey that I would NOT be less critical if the only detail changed was that Rey was a Skywalker. I would be equally critical. I apologize for my error and any confusion it may have caused.

Untrue. If the only detail changed was a single letter in the character's name, I would be equally critical of how this character has been written.

Further, I don't think her name is really Rey.

 

I can't say that you are incorrect here. I think there is a lot of bias that is factor in for some critics of her abilities.

 

With regard to some, I acknowledge that I can't say that you are incorrect.

Do you acknowledge that there are others with criticisms that are not based on the bias to which you refer?

 

The problem is, those same criticisms could also be applied to male force-users, and are not. There's always a special reason for why it's OK for Luke or Anakin or Obi-Wan or Palpatine to have a certain ability, but not Rey.

 

As part of my job, I sometimes interview attorneys, attempting to force them into plain subject-verb English.

Your post is remindful of my struggle.

"I know you say you don't disagree. But do you agree?"

 

She's meant to be a match for Ben Solo in particular, which I find very interesting.

 

Oh I'm not disagreeing, because if you put Rey and Luke's emerging abilities and exposure to training and education side by side ANH-ESB and TFA-TLJ they are almost identical. And at that time we did not know that Vader was his father and the "Chosen One" which seem to the be the argument today that sets Luke apart from Rey in why he can get a pass on his innate talents.

Vader as Anakin and the Chosen One were backfilled in after the fact, yet no one batted an eye during the OT that this farm kid from nowhere (who had a jedi knight father, but at that time was just a garden variety Jedi and not Teh Chosen One) suddenly had this innate power that made him akin to a demigod.

Oh I agree. There is no question about that.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't.

Not at all. As has been gone over again and just recently by myself and others Rey is unique as far as I'm aware in Star Wars certainly the movies and TCW and anything else I can remember.

The reason for everyone else ever is that they need time and to train over years and have teachers. Rey needs no time, training or teachers and is already past just about everyone ever but a handful of Force users in a few days and should be past them in a month or less.

 

I presented my evidence to the contrary here. Yet, I have seen no rebuttal and the accusatory tone continues regardless of my attempt to engage in a honest/civil discussion. All Force sensitives, like musicians, are talented. That doesn't mean they don't require guidance to progress rapidly and efficiently. I see this guidance established in the OT and PT, but I do not see it in Rey's story. Perhaps you can help me see what you see?

Yes, I have read your posts to this point and they leave me confused. I have outlined how I see the progression of Luke and Anakin and I don't see the resemblance to Rey's story. Would you mind pointing out what it is that I am missing?

I'm not certain how to parse this.

I am simply trying to have a civil conversation about the progression of a fictional character. There are some individuals who criticize this character b/c of her gender and I acknowledge that fact. I am looking for some acknowledgement that there are other individuals with criticisms with how this character was written that are not based on that bias.

If I was unclear, I apologize.

 

@eko32eko7

Let me do it this way:

• Desert orphan heads off on adventure with new found friends and meets elder mentor along the way (Luke)
• Desert orphan heads off on adventure with new found friends and meets elder mentor along the way (Rey)

• Early in the journey, orphan is introduced to the phenomenon called the Force (Luke in Obi Wan's house)
• Early in the journey, orphan is introduced to the phenomenon called the Force (Rey on Falcon where Han says it's all real)

• Early in the journey, orphan discovers he can do small things using the force with not much instruction (Luke, sparring blinded with the sparring ball on the Falcon)
• Early in the journey, orphan discovers she can do something small using the Force with not much instructions (Rey, mindtricking JB-007 into releasing her.)

• Orphan watches mentor die at the hands of the villain (Luke)
• Orphan watches mentor die at the hands of the villain (Rey)

• Mentorless, orphan accomplishes something huge with the Force with zero instruction and just a little suggestion ("Use the Force Luke!" Luke closes his eyes and manages to fire a torpedo into somethng the size of a manhole cover even though ace pilots doing it for years cannot. Deathstar goes BOOM!)
• Mentorless, orphan accomplishes something huge with the the Force with zero instruction and just a little suggestion ("I could teach you the ways of the Force!", Rey taps into the Force and beats down an already injured Kylo Ren)

• Orphan heads to exiled old Jedi to learn the ways of the Force, lifts rocks, fails lessons, angers Jedi, leaves before teaching complete (Luke)
• Orphan heads to exiled old Jedi to learn the ways of the Force, lifts rocks, fails lessons, angers Jedi, leaves before teaching complete (Rey)

• Orphan faces opponent, gets a reveal, gets his ass handed to him, needs to be rescued by a Skywalker (Luke, faces Vader, loses, Leia has to bail him out.)
• Orphan faces opponent, gets a reveal, gets her ass haned to her, need to be rescued by a Skywalker (Rey, face Snoke, gets tortured, Kylo kills Snoke)

• Orphan demonstrates Force act that required no instruction (Luke summons Leia telepathically)
• Orphan demonstrates Force act that required no instruction (Rey lifts a lot of rocks)

• Orphan ends second film contemplating failures yet is starting to find purpose. (Luke)
• Orphan ends second film contemplating failures yet is starting to find purpose. (Rey)

Edited to add: both pulled a lightsaber out of the snow and used it. No one taught either how to do it.

Two differences: Last names and gender.

 

As well as Luke training and having mentors who teach him all the while he fails on multiple levels before he actually becomes powerful (which takes years) and he doesn't go from nothing to toe to toe with Vader in a few hours. Three years after ANH in TESB and he's no match at all for Vader while in a few days Ren who has trained for years is no match for her.

 

Luke got, at best, a couple minutes of guidance from Obi-Wan, which enabled him to block laser blasts blind-folded (something we haven't seen Rey accomplish) and make an impossible shot to kill the death star without using his targeting computer. Somehow that is all perfectly fine because he bragged a few times about his hick skyhopper flying skills. Rey also gets a lesson in the force from Maz, she's grown up her whole life in a rough-and-tumble existence, exhibits clear fighting prowess with melee weapons, mentions her piloting skills, makes it clear that she has been involved in the Falcon's repairs and is extremely familiar with it, and even crashes it a bit on takeoff as she's figuring things out. And after all that, she does one jedi mind-trick and defeats a severely injured fallen jedi, who was specifically not trying to kill her. Rather than feel aggrieved over the "accusatory tone," maybe you should consider why you have no problem with Luke's character, but are so adamant that Rey is written poorly, based entirely around the idea that she is capable of doing heroic things just like the boys do, but somehow didn't "earn" her heroism.

Edit to add, I've always found Anakin's phenom-like force-use way more absurd than anything Rey does. Even with the retconning about chosen ones and midichlorian counts and all that. And yet, we all let that slide, because he's the hero, and we're used to Star Wars heroes being preternaturally lucky and gifted... until suddenly it becomes a big controversy.

 

OK. A key difference I see here is I don't see Han as a mentor in the same capacity as Obi Wan. I also don't understand what relevance the desert nature of Jakku and Tatooine has.

I see key differences here in that Luke witnessed Obi Wan use the Jedi mind trick and is in the middle of an actual lesson when he is blocking the bolts from the remote.

I see the echo of ANH here, but, again, I don't see Han as a mentor in the same capacity as Obi Wan.

Luke may have had little instruction, but his piloting ability and his ability to hit targets of that size are established by multiple sources (Obi Wan, Biggs and Luke himself) in the dialog. To me, this is in line with the rhythm of Force-sensitives that don't realize they are Force sensitive developing Force augmented skills that GL echoes in TPM with Anakin's ability to race pods.

This seems to be at odds with the premise of the Force "awakening", though.

I thought Luke's innate ability to reach out to Leia in ESB was crisis based instinct and only, really, worked because they were related. Perhaps that's headcanon.

By the time Luke we encounter Luke on Hoth and/or he goes to Degobah he has been doing his best to learn the ways of the Force for three years. For Rey, it was only a matter of days.

We don't know Rey's last name and I don't think her first name is Rey. Beyond that, I see quite a few differences. I think the primary difference is how each of us views Han.

I couldn't care less what genitalia or genes the next great hope for the galaxy possesses or does not possess.

EDIT: I also never thought of Luke as an orphan, but whatevs.

 

OK; It was not my intent to anger you. I don't agree with your premise, but that is ok.

I feel the sequel trilogy, in general, has been poorly executed and Rey's character is simply a casualty of that fact. This is, unfortunately, overshadowed by the intensely political nature of our culture at this point in history. Perhaps we can't find any common ground. I'm with you or I am against you, it seems.

I had mused, prior to TFA, that Leia would be the Obi Wan of the sequel trilogy and Rey, the next great hope for the galaxy, would be her protege. I was excited about this prospect. I'm sure that musing is simply the result of me being a bigot though.

EDIT: I do agree that Anakin destroying the droid control ship was absurd. I acknowledge that GL put effort into establishing that aspect of his character prior to its occurrence, however.

 

I know JJ has taken his fair share of criticism over the years, but I believe he has it in him to fix this.

 

JJ will bring it home in resounding fashion. Trust me.

 

You guys are giving a lot of credit to a guy who is nothing more than a slightly more talented version of Michael Bay.

 

Ouch lol. More than slightly. I like JJ's work for the most part.

 

Has JJ ever made an original movie? Like, for real? Remakes and homages seem to be his thing.

 

You're mostly correct. Lost was groundbreaking for its time.

 

JJ is a very very competent director, but he lacks a lot in the imagination territory, he "lives" too much in nostalgia... almost everytimes he makes a movie, he gives me the impression that his goal is to emulate another director's style... in a way he was perfect to make a new star wars the good old fashion way.... but the problem was that the story was also too much like the good old fashion way... anyway i think he can make a terrific episode IX if the writer of the movie does not work under his supervision (unless he has learned about originality since TFA, which is possible).
that said, i liked TFA... it's just a little too much like ANH

 

I'm not really bothered about original. I want a rip snorting adventure, and I don't care what JJ copies or is "heavily inspired" by. I think JJ can deliver a fun, action packed climax.

 

While I can understand why someone may criticise JJ on his own meetsm based on how most of what he is done has some ties to a pre-existing property. However, I find this criticism very ironic in the context of him directing the 11th film of 40+ year franchise which would still be the 11th film of said franchise with a different director.