ST JJ Abrams directing Episode IX Discussion

Luke got a basic youngling lesson from Obi-Wan and was able to make a nigh impossible shot with very specific guiding from Obi-Wan tapping into his own abilities already mentioned and gone over.

If people have any problem with what Luke does then how do they not have a massive one with Rey where the movie goes out of it's way to take story support from her.

The point is distinctly made over and again about Luke's abilities. Not just from Luke but Obi-Wan and Biggs as well. It's objective confirmation of Luke's skills. Lucas made the point of making everything Luke does as plausible in the first place. If he could have shown Luke flying on Tatooine he would have done it but he couldn't.

Because for whatever reason JJ went out of his way to make sure that unlike Lucas with Luke that she didn't "earn" it. Luke fails over and over again in ANH. "Failure" for Rey is trying something she shouldn't even know about and getting it the second try. Rey's story is so all over the place that they seemed to get lost. The only reason Rey is a pilot is because she says so and even then she doesn't know how she's done it. She's never flown the Falcon at all. Then flys it brilliantly and they make a point of her not really knowing how she did it.

Compare that to Luke where they point out that the ships he knows and has used for years are not that different from X-Wing in basic controls plus he has R2. Han Solo couldn't fly the Falcon like that without a co-pilot and Rey is doing all these crazy moves by herself. Chewbacca does the same again in TLJ all by himself with no co-pilot. Where does this come from? It simply breaks the actual way the Falcon works.

Saying Maz gave Rey a lesson in the Force doesn't work. She simply didn't. She shouldn't know about Jedi mind tricks never mind try to use it and successfully. Would it be alright then if a legion of sandpeople were given Lightsabers? Actually the way Rey handles the Lightsaber in TFA is not expert compared to her own staff so the comparison doesn't work anyway.

Kylo Ren knocked Rey down in a second but then minutes later doesn't try the same attack again. Why not? Did Rey suddenly know how to block Force attacks (like the freeze he hit her with earlier?)

I don't see how. Rey goes from nothing at all to apprentice levels in TFA then by TLJ she's a virtual Jedi Knight. All in mere hours. In TPM, much like with Luke, Lucas goes to great pains to establish objective views of Anakin's abilities. Then Anakin has to train for years. Can Anakin after 10 years of training match Dooku? No but with no training Rey can defeat Ren who has spent years training under Luke and Snoke. This "Well he didn't want to kill her." doesn't work because he certainly wanted to take the Lightsaber away but couldn't.

Look how similar the Anakin vs Dooku and Rey vs Ren duels are in many respects. Yet Anakin at that point is 13 years of training and he still is only able to defeat Dooku when he taps into the Dark side. At least in that respect there is something done for Rey in that she is also tapping into the quick and easy power of the Dark side though it's not meant to be that easy from nothing.

So the point is that JJ was clearly doing something different with Rey and there was some reason for what was going on with her that has yet to be revealed and hopefully will be in IX.

 

I would not want JJ's job. I can't imagine how he can fix what TLJ did to Luke, Finn, Poe, and Rose, not to mention how he's going to work around the Leia situation. It's going to be a very tall task.

 

JJ liked Rian's script and said that he wished he could direct it. I really doubt he sees TLJ as something that needs to be "fixed"; and not everyone thinks Rian "ruined" Star Wars.

 

Do you believe that? I dont - and I think we'll see hints of that if/when Ep IX retcons key TLJ plot points. I wouldnt expect a professional in his position to have said anything publicly otherwise, though, whether they liked Rians script or not.

"Do you like TLJ / Ryans script?" is a question JJ was going to get at some point. How would you answer it, if you didnt like the film or hated it, without drawing any unnecessary attention to yourself / rallying or dividing the fanbase further etc? And there's no good way to sound neutral. "Its not what I would have done" wouldnt inspire confidence. Its basically two scenarios: love it all the way publicly (whether true or not), or trial by fire if you appear to think/say/imply anything less.

If JJ didnt like TLJ, do people really think he wouldve said that?

 

IIRC someone pointed out that he actually didn't say that but even if he did I would find it hard to believe because that would indicate that he didn't like his own script for TFA!

I suspect IX is going to be more in line with TFA than TLJ.

 

You can believe anything you like. There is no evidence that JJ was lying and I personally feel no need to hope or assume he was. I liked TLJ and have zero issues with JJ continuing the story while keeping Rian's work intact.

 

TLJ didn't keep TFA's work intact. Far from it. It went out of it's way to disassemble it so I'd expect pretty much the same for JJ in IX continuing on from TLJ.

 

What are you talking about?

 

That can be used to dismiss any positive comments from anyone, at which point you'll only be left with negative comments neing 'truthful'. Sounds like a recipe for confirming negativity.

We need an approach that assesses people's comments evenly and fairly. We shouldn't dismiss people's comments just because they don't agree with us.

 

I can't think of a higher compliment than a director expressing a wish to direct your script. JJ didn't have to say that.

LF also didn't have to give Rian his own trilogy and I doubt they did it to flatter him. They obviously like his ideas.

Trevorrow's script was reportedly not considered acceptable and Rian was offered to write/direct Episode IX as well.

I don't see JJ scrapping Rian's contributions when he's only said positive things about them and agreed to come back.

 

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that JJ was lying?

You're wrong, by the way. He obviously wouldn't bash the script if he didn't like it, but nothing would force him to give it glowing praise.

If you like script A, you must dislike script B? Where's the logic in that?

 

I've been looking for this tweet for weeks now, but here is literally the only piece of info we have from any remotely reliable source regarding Abrams overriding Johnson's decisions or moving along with them. Spoiler alert: it sounds more like the latter. For anyone who's unfamiliar with Peter Sciretta or Slashfilm, he's been running the site for over ten years, is frequently reliable, and I'm pretty sure is the first person to say he was hearing that The Last Jedi would likely prove to be divisive with fans.

 

Amazing how a portion of the fandom has decided that RJ ruined SW, that the fans did not like the movie and even that it is necessary to reshoot the whole film.
I loved RJ take and I enjoyed the movie. And it seems that JJ had a blast too. Hope he will be able to deliver a great closure to the Saga.

 

people who think TLJ "erased" what JJ did are only looking at the surface of things...basically they are saying "TLJ doesnt explain Snoke or the Knights of Ren and Rey isnt the child of a legacy character so it means RJ threw away everything JJ did"

...is that all you guys saw in TFA? Sounds like form over substance, because most of the themes and characterization in TLJ are to be found in TFA (Kylo's inner conflict, exiled sad Luke, the burden of legacy, the rise of 2 antagonist heroes, the light and the dark side, the next gen's meta-view towards the "myth".

Also, if Snoke's backstory and Rey being a Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi are the most important things for some fans (which i find a little bit sad, th

 

people who think TLJ "erased" what JJ did are only looking at the surface of things...basically they are saying "TLJ doesnt explain Snoke or the Knights of Ren and Rey isnt the child of a legacy character so it means RJ threw away everything JJ did"

...is that all you guys saw in TFA? Sounds like form over substance, because most of the themes and characterization in TLJ are to be found in TFA (Kylo's inner conflict, exiled sad Luke, the burden of legacy, the rise of 2 antagonist heroes, the light and the dark side, the next gen's meta-view towards the "myth".

Also, if Snoke's backstory and Rey being a Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi are the most important things for some fans (which i find a little bit sad, these are the most gimmick-y things in TFA) there was no promise in the movie that we would get any of those.

 

It is the same thing over and over again. Some fans can't accept TLJ and where it moves the story to. Therefore we usually read things like: 1) JJ Abrams now returns and will make the story what we wanted (Snoke alive, Rey Skywalker and Luke returns), 2) Disney is going to correct it all, fire KK and commit to a full Skywalker saga future.

But the truth is JJ was quoted to love TLJ story, and the only bit we have about IX comes from a trust worthy journalist like Sciretta, who indicates IX is following TLJ direction in terms of story.

Probably certain aspects of TLJ get softened, like the silly humor or the loss of the OT big names (I can totally see JJ giving Luke an emotional scene with Ben at some point). But believing there is some change going on in LFL backstage that will magically make the ST fit the personal preferences of the ones who hated TLJ simply reads like wishful thinking IMO.

 

And the other truth is that this will be visible at the BO result

 

Yep, Disney will probably collapse if IX does 1.4 bn like TLJ.

 

Of course JJ will continue RJs story, just like RJs story followed closely JJs. What do people mean by "changing"? That Snoke and Luke will be alive somehow? They wont. That Rey is a Skywalker/Solo/Kenobi? She wont be. What else JJ is supposed to change? More ghost force Luke?? This doesnt contradict or undo what RJ did. He even mentionned the fact that JJ could use that as a way to explore the force ghost stuff.

And for the audience...TLJ was controversial but now it's done -for better or for worse- That Rey is Luke's child or Luke saves the day at the end wont change the GA's mind about whether or not going to watch the movies.

BO? fun to talk about it but id rather have a great SW movie that relatively "bomb" that a low common denominator BO juggernaut.

The problem with JJ is that there's no problem. You know the movie's gonna be good with plenty of things to love...but it is unlikely to go beyond that and offer something meatier. Hope im wrong

 

As referenced that TLJ threw out the direction that JJ indicated. Now it's his own fault for not actually committing to it in his own movie but that is another problem.

Presuming JJ liked his own script then a script that ignored his own probably isn't his favorite.

Not at all. It's right at the center. JJ's Luke was Jedi Master who presumably went to the island for a reason, Rey was the main protagonist and co-central character with Ren who was in awe of Snoke and his own grandfather.

That TLJ went a different path for Luke, Rey, Ren and Snoke as characters is completely different to anything I'd imagine JJ doing or why bother doing what he did in TFA in the first place? So the central characters were changed the masks and maps and so many other things that were set-up were all thrown aside. The entire backstory of the First Order was basically totally changed etc etc.

Now the problem as stated before is that since JJ has his mystery box and doesn't want to answer questions he allowed it so that RJ or anyone else could ignore things because those details were not explicitly stated. Characters in Star Wars do change between movies though RJ's move to set TLJ right after TFA so that all these characters instantly change on a dime really doesn't work.

Somehow I think that the Rey we see in TFA that JJ created will be in IX as opposed to the extremely confused and confusing support character that RJ turned Rey into.

Maybe this isn't the thread for this. If not then maybe on another thread if not here you could explain how you think RJ followed JJ's story because I don't see how it does except on the most basic of plot levels as a follow-up to start. Other than that it's pretty much a complete restart of the trilogy from scratch. RJ did a sequel to a movie that has similar events to TFA with characters with the same names and similar histories but that is about it.

 

-Luke went to the island for a reason: yes, as Han explained he felt guilty and went into exile on the site where was built the first Jedi Temple. And that's what you get in TLJ. Old hermit back to his order "roots", waiting to die. You might not like the story of course, that's fine, but it doesn't contradict anything at all from TFA except for your own expectations
.
-The map? nothing wrong with the map. San Tekka found a fragment of the map that leads to Ahch-To. An ancient map. Indiana Jones-style but in space. Luke knew the place too but didn't tell anyone. The story is not movie-material. just background details for novels/comics....no mystery here.

- At the end of TFA i didn't see a very happy Luke Skywalker. Nothing that contradicts a war-weary, reluctant, grumpy old Luke.

- Kylo Ren knows is being manipulated by Snoke (watch the Han/Ben scene again, he clearly admits it and try to convince himself with the Snoke is wise propaganda, also in TLJ you see that Snoke is treating him in a way that won't inspire awe for too long). Also, nothing says that he doesn't worship his grandfather any longer, Did the film have to AGAIN focus on the explicit and do another Vader fan boy scene? The kill the past doesn't refer to Vader anyway, it's more subtle than that. Ben is not a Sith or anything.

-Rey? I'll pass. Without Luke in TFA she didn't have to share her "main character" status that much. She had to do so in TLJ because of Luke. Nothing shocking here IMO, or that would contradict TFA (again, you might not like it, but nothing goes again TFA's direction)

-Snoke? he's the same character, just more fleshed out because we see him...in the flesh. TFA never promised that we would know who Snoke is or that he would survive until ep9. This doesn't make any sense....

-the masks? Kylo's mask? There's a very good scene about it in TLJ i think i don't have to add anything about it and why he destroys it. It is very explicit and in line with the characters.

- Knights of Ren? I hope we'll see them in ep9, but it's not because they're not in TLJ that they don't exist anymore.

-The vision Rey had in TFA? It's not because you don't have an explanation in TLJ that the movie undid TFA. The trilogy is not over.

-the backstory of the FO was absolutely NOT changed...can you please elaborate as i honestly don't see this in the movie even playing the devil's advocate?

-Every character seem to act...in character....Finn wants to run away and is only interested in saving Rey (like at the end of TFA), Poe is a hot shot pilot (like at the end of TFA) and they both learn things throughout the movie. Luke was only seen 10 seconds without talking and was described as in exile and did look sad. Ren was emotionally unstable, conflicted and volatile, strong and weak at the same time. hmmm....i don't see how these characters are not the same at the beginning of the movie? Same thing for Rey, she acts like she's always been acting, optimistic, strong, naive, good at heart, lonely, looking for a father/family figure...etc etc...

 

Isn't that the characters we got in TLJ also though? Luke was on the island for a reason (although you might not have liked that reason), Rey was a co-main protagonist (although you might not have liked the character progression), and Ren was in awe of his grandfather and Snoke in TLJ.

I understand not agreeing with the direction that TLJ took the story, but I don't see how anything is inconsistent with JJ's TFA.

 

J. J. Abrams: “Here’s the thing about Greg [Grunberg]. You put a microphone in front of him, you never know what you’re going to get. I love my friend Greg. He’s my best friend since Kindergarten. I think that my enthusiasm for [Episode] VIII is enormous. I think he also might have invented a couple of the quotes that he gave (‘[J. J. Abrams] read [the script for Episode VIII] and said something he never, ever says, [which was that it was] so good [that he wished he had written it]. He may have said something one time on Lost, with Damon [Lindelof], but I never hear him express regret like that.’) but I am very much excited for, and very jealous of anyone, especially Rian [Johnson], who gets to work so closely with this extraordinary cast and crew. Truly an amazing group. In that regard, for sure, but honestly, I’m also relieved to have gotten the chance to do a Star Wars movie.” (January 13, 2016)

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J. J. Abrams: “I had no intention to return. But when the opportunity presented itself to finish a story that we had begun with these new characters, to tell the last chapter of their story, it felt like there was a chance to do it in a way where we could go beyond, and do better than we did in Seven. I learned so much in that movie and I saw that this was a chance to sort of realize something that we hadn’t quite achieved – and part of that was it was simply the beginning of these new characters and their story. The opportunity to sort of take what we had learned, to take the feeling of who these characters are and what they are and give them a final chapter that felt in the spirit of what we begun? It was too delicious of an opportunity to pass up.” (December 6, 2017)

J. J. Abrams: “[I had differences of opinion] all the time [with Kathleen Kennedy], [but she] really takes in what people say and finds a creative way to aggregate and distill the conversation.” “I had a bunch of ideas from the beginning, back on [Episode] VII, of where the story would go, I just never in my wildest dreams thought I would have a chance to execute them.” (May 10, 2018)

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As far as changes from Mr. Abrams's direction in VII, these actors have had the following to say.

Mark Hamill: "J. J. [Abrams] had a much different vision for what was gonna happen in [Episode] VIII. The first thing I said to Rian, ‘How are you going to explain me in my Jedi ceremonial robes when I first meet Rey?’ Things like that to make sure there was a flow.” “Remember when I call you [Rian Johnson] up and was panicking, ‘Did they take out the floating boulders?’ (laughs) ‘Cause when we were shooting VII J. J. goes, ‘and we’ll have a couple of floating boulders’ to show Luke’s Force powers emanating from him. And I read VIII before VII came out. So I called Rian panicking, ‘Did you know they’re gonna put in floating boulders? Get’em out!…or it won’t match your script.’ Plus I thought, ‘Oh great, I’m gonna have the Force oozing out of every orifice in my body. I’ll be knocking down AT-ATs like dominoes without raising an eyebrow and I won’t even have to train that hard ’cause I’ll just do (hand gesture) this and the ILM guys will put the Force lightning coming out of my fingers." (March 19, 2018)

Daisy Ridley: “[Was Rey’s backstory completed before the release of Star Wars: The Force Awakens?] Here’s what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJentirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.” (March 1, 2018)

Simon Pegg: “Well I know…I know what J. J. kind of intended [for Rey’s parentage] or at least what was being chucked around. I think that’s kind of been undone slightly by the last one [in Star Wars: The Last Jedi]. I don’t know. I. Don’t. Know. <laughs> I think Unkar Plutt is Rey’s real father. <laughs> Yeah [Plutt seems like a good father.] <laughs> He was just trying to keep…obesity is a big problem on Jakku. I can’t remember what [alien race Plutt] is.” “But [Plutt] was worried about Rey gaining weight so he didn’t want to give her too many portions you know – limit that.” “[So it was going to be different parents for Rey when you were on set chit-chatting?] Well there was some talk about you know a kind of relevant lineage for her. But I honestly don’t know [now]. I don’t know if anybody knows, you know. We shall see.” (April 4, 2018)