Amph JJ Abrams' Star Trek Into Darkness

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ulkesh2, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    The first problem with this logic is that there's no such thing as a plot hole. Every time an inconsistency arises, you assume that an explanation must exist, and has in fact been "spoon-fed" to us, or else the inconsistency wouldn't be so obvious. But you never consider the possibility that an inconsistency may actually exist. Nor do you really put much effort into trying to demonstrate where the authors offered specific evidence that would eliminate a seeming inconsistency.

    The second problem with your logic is that it cuts both ways. How come no one is surprised that he doesn't look like the classical image? If a shot, obese, Chinese man with dreadlocks turned out to be Abraham Lincoln, people would express a bit of surprise it wasn't the towering, marfanoid white man with a stovepipe that every portrait said he was. Likewise, I think people would be taken aback if someone who looked like the Elephant Man claimed he was actually Napoleon Bonaparte. Therefore, the fact that no one was surprised by Khan's appearance shows that he was always supposed to be a pale British man.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "The Naked Now" wasn't that bad. It was "The Naked Time" that was bad. Anyway, it's remembered because it was used as a still image in the end credits for seasons one and two.

    They haven't gone back to the 20th century, yet. :p

    You've watched the films. You know how she behaves when threatened. She picks up a blaster and shoots the ************! You're arguing about something that didn't happen, which is irrelevant. Threatening her wouldn't get the job done. Threatening others would. Luke refused to fight Vader until he was goaded into it, because his friends and loved ones were threatened by the Sith. Nute was only given a short leash to do what was necessary. Anything more would require approval from Lord Sidious.

    The Trade Federation is going by Darth Sidious's orders. He didn't order them to bomb the poodoo out of Theed and the surrounding areas. They've been assured by Sidious that Padme will fold and do what they want. They know better than to anger him.

    Because Lord Sidious didn't tell him to do anything other than what was done. You don't anger the guy that can choke you to death with a wave of his hand.

    He does care, but he's not going to get his ass handed to him for doing something that he hasn't been ordered to.

    Then Kirk, Spock, Scotty, McCoy, Sulu, Chekov, Uhura, Pike, Sarek, Amanda and Carol have all had plastic surgery, because they look nothing like they used to. This is the problem in having Khan's face changed, just to justify a different actor playing the same character. Tom Hardy looked nothing like Patrick Stewart, much less the other actors to play a young Picard, but I didn't see no effort there to justify the change in facial features.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Sep 2, 2013
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    I would say that what Gunray is or is not doing is at the behest of Palpatine. I don't think anything they do, including whether or not to use physical force against Padme herself, is Gunray's call. He's middle management, spineless middle management at that. He's just doing what he's told and hoping that the end result gets him a result that favors him. He clearly already fears Sidious in TPM.

    This isn't a guy making calls on the ground. This is a guy who does what he's told whether he likes it or not.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Sep 2, 2013
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's why Dooku and Grievous run the show a decade later.
  5. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    I think you got those titles mixed up.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Ooops, my mistake.
    Sarge likes this.
  7. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    How does the knowledge I gained of Padme at the climax of this film and parts of an entirely separate film set a decade later inform Nute Gunray's knowledge of her at the moment in question?

    I'm not arguing about the results of an event that didn't occur. I'm arguing that the event should have occurred in the first place, because it was a logical consequence of the scenario they set up. For instance, The Room receives regular and deserved verbal abuse for its poor quality. One of the most common complaints is the infamous failure to follow-up on a character's new diagnosis of breast cancer. They are absolutely pointing out that something that didn't happen, because it didn't make any sense for people (including the character) the way they did in the film. Nute Gunray's interest in what we are told is his main goal in the opening crawl is likewise incredibly tepid. And in both cases, the solution would be either to A)drop the superflous plot element or B)add something to the film that deals with the elements that were obviously and unjustifiably ignored.

    The defense both of you has chosen doesn't really make sense. Yes, Sidious seems to be the senior partner in the relationship. But Nute Gunray is only one individual, and he still has to represent the interests of the Trade Federation. It's not realistic for them to be blindly led around by Sidious without even having an explanation of how things might benefit them. The movie acknowledges as much, letting Rune Haako voice the obvious and legitimate doubts about blind obedience to the Sith. Yet, instead of responding to these criticisms, or showing why the Federation can't take react in the way it would like, the movie just sort of ignores the existence of these points and continues to show a Trade Federation that is (according to you) gung-ho about following an incompetent leader that subordinates the needs of his own organization to some mysterious guy no one has seen in person before, who has impossibly convoluted and poorly explained plans that require everyone else putting in major efforts to no discernible results. Why wouldn't Gunray just be relieved of his office?
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Because, as you said, we know what Padme will do under pressure. She won't buckle. Nute believes that she will, not from physical attacks on her person, but on her people. Which was part of the plan.

    The plot is dealt with. Nute believes that he has time to make Padme do what he wants, without the Senate's interference, since Lord Sidious tells him that he's manipulating things in the Senate to go his way. Nute believes that he can lure Padme back, by sending the message to establish a connection trace and to evoke a surrender out of her.

    1. Sure it's realistic, because the Sith are not to be trifled with. Sidious has given them a plan that will benefit them financially, allowing them to retain their power and tax free lifestyle. As Palpatine tells Anakin, all those who have power are afraid to lose it. The Trade Federation has a seat in the Senate, which is an example of the corruption that's weakening the Senate. They've benefited from not having to pay taxes on the use of trade routes and know that with said laws going into effect, they'll lose money instead of making it. You know, like people who don't pay their taxes in order to have tax free finances. They've entered a Faustian agreement with Sidious, because of their cowardice and greed. The entire Trade Federation is in league with Sidious. Nute Gunray, Rune Haako, Lott Dodd, Daultray Dofine and Gilramos Libkath. They were all in on it. The one who objected, Hath Monchar, was sliced up by Darth Maul when he tried to warn the Jedi. They're so scared of Sidious that after Dofine opened his yap, was told to go sit in a corner or else he'd be killed.

    2. Lott Dodd was the one in the Senate, not Rune Haako as he was on Naboo with Nute. Lott Dodd is lying because he's in on the plan and his part is to create a delaying tactic in the Senate, by objecting and demanding an investigation to verify the claims of Queen Amidala, which Aks Moe supports. Valorum has to cave in, rather than take decisive action by sending Jedi and troops in to resolve the matter.

    3. After the Battle of Naboo, the entire company was under fire for what they did, but Dooku's bribery and covert tactics kept them out of prison and once that was done, they went to Geonosis to discuss joining the Separatist movement. Nute wasn't voted out, because the Sith wanted him there and were assured that they would be greatly rewarded for their time and trouble. That reward was Darth Vader slaughtering them and the Federation being absorbed into the Empire.
  9. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Source
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Sorry, I misread what you said. But that still doesn't change the point, they joined the Sith willingly. It wasn't Nute's decision, alone. It was all of them. He only questions it because he's scared of being arrested and sent to prison. They know better than to question Sidious, much less attempt to back out. They turned to him because of their fear and greed. And eight years later, Sidious kept them out of prison, which in their view was a show of support for their cause.
  11. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I realize they joined the Sith willingly. But throughout TPM, he asks them to do a whole series of things that don't make any sense at all from their perspective. Besides picking very risky strategies in the first place, he deliberately handicaps their ability to execute those strategies successfully. He never tries to explain it, nor are there any apparent benefits for them after the fact.

    In this situation, most people would at least contemplate abandoning the deal. Yet, except for one throw away line you didn't even remember when I referenced it directly, no one even brings this up. How are we supposed to believe they were clever enough to establish one of the Galaxy's most powerful economic, military, and political forces, sustained for centuries, and yet also be stupid enough to accept a deal where some guy calls them on the telephone and says "Do everything I say and you will like the result. Believe me."

    A better film would've tried to give us more reason why the Neimodians are so blindly obedient to Sidious, or at least explored their feelings about that, or did something to touch on the way all the villains are seemingly oblivious to how they shoot themselves in the foot at every opportunity.
  12. Master_Jacen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2003
    star 6
    or at least explained what is wrong with their faaaaaaaccccceeeeee
    _Catherine_ and Jedi-Anakin-Solo like this.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's because it's do as I say, or else you ******* die.

    I misread what you wrote, not forgot about the line.

    The films did establish their motivations. Fear and greed were the primary motivators for accepting a bargain from a Sith Lord, who offered a better alternative to their situation than sitting there going broke. The Sith have a reputation for opposing the Republic and at one point, ruled the galaxy through fear and treachery. They're obedient because they know he will kill them, otherwise. The same way the Imperials listened to Vader and opted not to argue with him, otherwise he'd kill them. And it's clear in TPM, they weren't a great military organization. They're relying on a Droid Army that cannot think for itself the same way that Threepio and Artoo could, as the Droid Army was easily confused and were operated by computer programming from a remote signal. They got to where they are because of their being shrewd businessmen, in an era where there wasn't an army and the Republic became lax in being an efficient and effective body of government. They relied on the Sith and Grievous for military strategies because they weren't adapt in those fields of expertise.
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  14. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    Wow, so this is actually happening.
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  15. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    A Star Wars discussion in a Star Trek thread? Now I've seen everything!
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No. Nothing of the sort is implied. Another all-or-nothing scheme, eh?

    No. As usual, the above has no resemblance to anything I said. This is one specific, individual case and thus "every time" doesn't come into it. And I said nothing about an explanation being spoon-fed to "us". I referred to the basis for the existence of the inconsistency having been spoon-fed to you.

    The whole point was the existence of an apparent inconsistency. Try not to get things too confused: I'm not in the "what's the problem?" group.

    That's because the product in question hasn't been released yet. Other than that, all we have from the writers is acquiescence to the potential viability of possibilities suggested by fans.

    Probably for the same reason that nobody in Space Seed identified him as Khan Singh on sight.

    Not the greatest analogy, given that they're both white and they were both playing white guys: Picard and the presumably equally white clone-of-Picard. No one ever got their first glance at Jean-Luc Picard and thought, "I'm betting this guy is from northern India".

    Same deal. Yeah, they hired an actress to play Uhura who didn't look like Nichelle Nichols. Shocking. But you may have noticed they didn't cast Judi Dench.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 5, 2013
  17. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
  18. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    People watch special features? :p

    All joking aside, it seems they've learned a way to get more money. By giving you less product.
  19. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 6
    So, when exactly does EA intend to sue Paramount for ripping off their business model?
  20. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I can't wait for the DLC where the cast acts out Wrath of Khan verbatim. Kirk's death was just a preview!
  21. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, you gotta make that **** Not Free Day One DLC.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    My point is that casting based on acting abilities, over ethnicity, was the factor here. Hence there's no plastic surgery, regardless of having it in an IDW comic. If it was a factor, it would have been brought up in the movie. It's not the first time in the history of cinema that this happened.
  23. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Hey darth-sinister, nice to know we live in a world where all race and ethnicity issues have been solved, and that there's no reason for anyone to be even slightly miffed when a character is whitewashed to make way for more important human issues like "acting ability".
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I never said anyone had the right to be miffed or not. The thing is that Hollywood has been trying to work with actors and not skin tone. Wes Studi is Cherokee, yet he played a Thai character in "Street Fighter". Sure, skin tone was similar, but that's about it. Michael Clarke Duncan played a character that is notoriously white, when he did "Daredevil", instead of going with Paul Wight, aka the Big Show. Speaking of that film, look at Elektra. They were looking at Asian, Spanish, Jewish and Caucasian women to play the role of a Greek girl. Both roles were cast with acting talent over skin tone. And of course, Will Smith played Agent J who was pretty white in the comics version of "Men In Black". Sure, whitewashing exists, but it's moving towards the inverse nowadays.
  25. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    We totally need more white actors in movies, agreed.
    dp4m likes this.