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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST JJ Abrams to direct Episode VII

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Kuestmaster, Jan 24, 2013.

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  1. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    Not into darkness. I'm talking about Star Wars. George Lucas was always about rhyming, so a scene like that is very in his character. Vader revealing he's the father, Luke revealing he's the brother.

    One could say, the brother reveal was cheap and lame. To this day I still think it's a weird forced reveal. My point is, if Abrams does something like that, it's very much in the kind of stuff George Lucas has always done.
     
  2. DV75

    DV75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 30, 2001
    Abrams won't do something like that. Which was my point. He will do something along the lines of Into Darkness. Rip off a popular scene from a previous movie, flip it around to make it look different.

    Very different then what Lucas did with the brother reveal. Luke wasn't in a battle with Leia, cut off her hand and then said "....I am your brother."
     
  3. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    What makes you say that? He didn't even write the Into Darkness script. I feel like there's just a bias against Abrams for some reason. Super 8 is a movie he wrote. Everyone is pre-judging him on this movie before having even seen it. Like he already screwed up. You don't know that. A lot of people close to the project seem to be floored by it, a lot of people who visited the production think they are doing magical things.

    I think we should kinda wait it out and give the guy a chance, if the movie is awful then by all means. I just think people cherry picking movies he didn't even write to explain why he will write a bad story is kinda flawed. That's like me picking Lucas' awful movies and tell people he couldn't do another good Star Wars movie.

    Lucas thought Abrams was a good choice, Lucas, Kennedy thought Abrams was a good choice, Spielberg thought Abrams was a good choice. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt on this over people on forums.
     
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  4. DarthLightlyBruise

    DarthLightlyBruise Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 11, 2015
    I understand your point, and don't dislike JJ's films (though I do find most of them to be generally forgettable). But why are we supposed to want him to "ape" the Spielberg style? Personally, I don't want a director imitating anyone's style. I want a director with their own style. Plus, I don't particularly like the syrupy melodrama of most Spielberg films. To me, the Star Wars OT was a lot "lighter" than the Spielberg style. A lot breezier. For example, after Owen and Beru were torched, Lucas gave us a slow closeup of Luke going from grief to anger. And that was it. The story continued. The Spielberg version of that would have been much longer, with slo-motion, obvious musical cues, a scene of Luke burying them, three or four more scenes where he talks about how much he misses them, and how he's going to avenge them, all with generally mawkish dialogue accompanied by obvious music...In short, Spielberg would have hit us over the head with the emotional stuff, rather than allow the audience to draw their own conclusions.

    I'm hoping JJ doesn't go too far in that direction. And from what I've seen, he could go either way.

    Still, I have trust in him at this point. But that's mainly because I think he's going to use his skills to try to capture the tone of the original, while still imbuing it with his own personal touch.
     
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  5. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    DarthLightlyBruise


    I think people are misreading what I'm putting out. My point is, Abrams is great at capturing the feeling of a Spielberg or a Lucas of this era. Not many directors are good at that. However, my point was....while he can do that based on the teaser it's still very much Abrams style. So it feels different.... I feel like the Kylo scene wouldn't be filmed like that if it was Lucas. I love the look of that scene.

    So my moral of the story if you will. He captures the vibe of those classic movies but he gives it a very Abrams twist which makes it feel fresh and different. That mixture feels really good.
    It'll be nice if we can get some character to character dialog for the next trailer. That'll be a nice moment to judge the vibe of this movie.
     
  6. DarthLightlyBruise

    DarthLightlyBruise Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 11, 2015
    Understood. If he's successful at capturing OT Lucas, while injecting his own energy into it, I will be happy. I have some fears about his visual style, but what I have seen so far (apart from the MF and the Stormtrooper shots from the teaser, which I felt looked more like standard blockbuster fare) is encouraging. I also love that opening shot of Boyega. Simple and effective. No frills.
     
  7. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006

    Because he keep arguing with people about how they shouldn't disagree with you. If you don't want to have an argument, then stop making comments like how disliking JJ's previous work and his ability as a director is dumb. It's a matter of opinion.
     
  8. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    yeah that boyega shot just screamed OT to me.


    ray243

    Nah, the only time I'll argue with a person hating on Abrams is if they're being ridiculous about it. Complaining about things without a good argument. ABRAMS IS AWFUL, HE CAN'T DO ANYTHING GOOD, STAR WARS IS RUINED. Those sorts of people. There's plenty of people who are weary about the Abrams Star Wars that I've left alone. It's usually the people who seem extremely biased that Lucas isn't continuing the series that I usually argue with.


    People like Skaddix is the prime example. Spends his days in the thread saying Finn doesn't do anything in the movie. He's a chicken who doesn't win any fights. People that say ridiculously biased comments like they've seen the movie already.

    I get the nervousness of a new person taking over but lets be realistic. Let's judge based on what we've actually seen which is little. If we want educated debates on the actual 88 seconds, lets do that... but this whole, Abrams can't do a Star Wars ...just look at into darkness type arguments are a bit much.
     
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  9. DV75

    DV75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 30, 2001
    Super 8 was lame. JJ trying his best Spielberg impression. Though a forgettable film.

    I hope KK and Kasdan's input bring better things out of a JJ directed Star Wars film. But based on the rumours, its not really encouraging.
     
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  10. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    See that's my issue.

    Now I actually thought Super 8 ( which to me is really about the characters not the story) was great.

    If you have never seen a Star Wars and you heard a description of barebones story details a lot of people would be like..... this sounds dumb.

    I tell my gf....

    R2D2 winds up on a desert planet with a hologram programmed inside for Ben Kenobi to see, and somehow Luke happened upon it.....Etc....using the force....Death Star has a very flawed weakness....etc. Described in barebone details without actually seeing it kinda makes it seem bad.


    What makes Star Wars good and always has made it good was the wonder, and the characters, and the universe. I feel like it's a point a lot of people are missing with these MSW leaks. No words will ever do justice of what the actual film, the actual sounds, the actual music, and the wonderful characters and visuals bring to life for the viewer.

    THAT is whats gonna matter. imo
     
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  11. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006

    But we can look into Abrams's filmography and understand how he makes movies. Sure he can completely surprise us by making a movie that is utterly different from his previous work, but it is highly unlikely. My problem with Abrams is he has always seem to distil grand and cinematic storylines, and reduce them to its most simplest form.

    He's good at making decent action movies. If he is making like a new Fast and Furious movie, I won't mind Abrams. However, I do not see SW as a mere action movie. I think there are strong thematic elements and philosophical themes that JJ doesn't seem to understand well, even as a SW fan. I think he is too focus on the action part of movie making that he doesn't really handle the other aspect of it. He certainly doesn't seem to understand cinematography well compared to Lucas, if his wife is telling him off for the overuse of Lens flare.
     
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  12. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    I'd agree with you if the teaser didn't look amazing and it looked amazing to me and looked perfectly like a Star Wars movie. A lot of people share this sentiment some don't. Looking at someone's back catalog isn't a sure fire way to know if they will do a good job or not. There's plenty of directors who started with clunkers worked to decent movies and then made it huge with their great movie. I don't think he's too focused on action, I think he's focused on characters which to me is a huge factor with Star Wars. Every argument you keep throwing at me are things I don't see at all. Cinematography? Are you saying this because of Lens flairs? I absolutely loved what was in the teaser in terms of cinematography. We all just got done talking about Boyega's opening shot which was simple and very effective, the snowy forest scene, the X-Wings over the water. All very nicely shot beautiful, simple , effective scenes. I even love how they shot the Stormtroopers because they look more menacing and military like.

    You say you don't think he can handle Star Wars but the guy has been incredibly capable with everything he himself developed. ( what I mean by this is stuff he actually wrote) You are saying he can't do a Star Wars because he's focused on action, why not wait and see before you make such a judgement? He's never made a Star Wars, a lot of people out there haven't made a Star Wars caliber movie. So let him actually put out his Star Wars before you think he can't handle it.



    CLOSING ARGUMENT.

    I'm making my statements based on the footage I've seen and I'm taking a wait and see approach.
     
  13. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    May 26, 2006
    At the least it does give us an idea what the director is like isn't it? We understood how a director likes to tell his story. The fact is I found myself liking JJ's trailer more than the actual movie itself. The trailer for ST09 for instance, seem to suggest it's a far more dramatic and grand movie than what we got in the end. The trailer give me the impression that Eric Bana would have the avenue to explore his character a lot more than what we really got to see in the full film.

    It's why I think a teaser doesn't indicate whether the actual directing is done well or not.


    I completely disagreed with the decision to use shaky cam for the stormtrooper scene, and the really obvious use of a blue colour tint. It feels way too contemporary big budget movie than a SW movie that stood out from its peers


    You doesn't have to make a SW movie for someone to judge you as a director, and whether you are suitable to be a director for SW. It's about how a director direct his movies and what is his storytelling sensibilities. A movie by James Cameron for instance, seem to better fit SW than JJ in my view. James Cameron as director does not seem to be afraid of pushing boundaries and trying to make things old school, while allowing large portion of his audience to be stun by his visual effects in Avatar.

    Cuaron is another director who is good at this as well, who dares to push technical boundaries and see them as integral part of his movie when he made Gravity. To me, these are directors who seem to understand the essence of SW. SW isn't about retaining the old school feel of a movie made back in 1977, it's about understanding how to use technology to tell a story.
     
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  14. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    But see that's my point. He didn't write either Star Trek movie. So if it isn't grand it's not actually is fault. He got good performances out of the actors and turned an okay script at best into a good movie for a lot of people. Let's see how abrams does on his own abilities with the help of kasdan. I never said he does no wrong, I'm saying this is his shot to prove naysayers wrong. Give him a chance before you assume he's gonna fail you.
     
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  15. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Aping the style of other directors really isn't a quality to be admired IMHO. But Abrams has only really done it in one movie, so I'm not sure that critisism even applies to him. Truth be told, put a Jedi and droids in a film and it will look like SW... just as Star Trek09 looked like Star Trek. However, it's not nesersarily the look that one should be concerned about.
     
  16. Lady Warp Spasm

    Lady Warp Spasm Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 19, 2015
    I'd politely disagree. Of J.J.'s work, I only like the first Star Trek, BUT... he got my attention with the Star Wars teaser. I will go into TFA acting as if I've never seen a J.J. Abrams' movie. It's Star Wars first and foremost. If J.J. can maintain the bubbly joy I have with the teaser I am sure I will enjoy it, as I already like some of the cast.
     
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  17. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 7, 2009
    What is lame?

    The previous comment regarding casting children?


    Who imitated it?
     
  18. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    What do you mean "who imitated it"? Do you mean who imitated SW???
     
  19. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I agree about Star Trek 09... and I think one of the reasons Star Trek: Into Darkness is so poor for me is because of all the mistakes in the establishing of events and characterisation of ST 09. We have Kirk join Starfleet for no disenable reason. We have Spock choose Starfleet because we see 2 minutes of him feeling peeved at fellow Vulcans. Their time in the academy is reduced to pretty much the Kobayashi Maru test. We have Nero who doesn’t seem to have any perceivable motivation to hunt Spock and destroy everything (why does he consider it Spock’s fault)? Everything that Abrams, and the writers, put in play at the start of ST09 i.e. an alternate timeline, gives them the opportunity to do anything and everything they want with the characters and situations. But what happens? They all have the same personalities (but reduced to being simple 2D caricatures of the originals) and they all end up friends, and in the same roles on the Enterprise. Narratively, this leaves them absolutely no where to go with ST: ID and beyond. Abrams does the impossible... he re-boots and kills the franchise in one film.

    In terms of other directors... yes I think there is a plethora of better equipped directors out there. However, as I’ve said previously, I think Abrams was/is considered a safe pair of hands in terms of ensuring that EP VII has broad and popular appeal. It will have that I'm sure, but based on Abrams filmmaking record to date, I think it will have lost much of its substance.[/quote]
     
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  20. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 7, 2009

    No, I'm asking who you think imitated the corny dialogue? Not stands out in my memory.
     
  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013

    In terms of dialogue, I don’t think anyone would look to imitate specific dialogue from SW, it’s more about the overall tone and character dynamics. But you can look to a host of stuff that came out after SW... everything from Indiana Jones, Battlestar Galactica, Flash Gordon (the quasi-religious elements of Highlander) etc. up to X-Men, Star Trek 09, Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. This also doesn't take into account the plethora of films that have tried to mimic the world building and design/visual effects elements of SW too.
     
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  22. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    There's my argument - the overall tone has been imitated, but always missing is this naive, "gee whiz" quality. It's really more of a 1940's-50's thing. Especially in the dialogue/acting.

    Re: our topic I wonder how J.J. can capture that. IMO John Carter has come closest. Guardians of the Galaxy is far, far away.

    Bickering characters do not a SW movie make. Innocence is key.
     
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    I think you make many good points about what could very well happen. The point where we are presented with characters and scenes and we are given motivations without any particular reason why they are doing what they are doing. They just are.

    Nero is a great point. What does he blame Spock for exactly? For not getting to Romulus fast enough? For that he wants to destroy Vulcan? I did always find that odd. Why not have Spock get to Romulus on time and have him make a miscalculation and actually first save the planet and then cause it's destruction by accident?

    This idea that "he didn't write it" is a bit off as well. I think that he had more than a little to do with the shape of the story and where it went.

    That said I don't think anyone is going to hold Star Trek to the same level of expectation as Star Wars and so JJ's 2 Treks are what they set out to be. Basically it's a reboot so everyone is basically who they are supposed to be and doing the things they are supposed to do but I would say doing Star Trek which originated as a TV series in movies is inherently flawed to the source material.

    Star Wars is inherently a movie series since that is where it started. An ongoing TV series wouldn't be the best thing for Star Wars anymore than a movie series is the best thing for Star Trek. Doesn't mean either is bad but just not the best suited for the way the stories are told. Star Wars is epic and has endings but you can't do epic week after week while Trek is smaller stories one after the other so whatever you do in a movie it's not about getting to the end but to another story.

    I suspect that is what will happen. Not in the way that George did of course.

    If it was that easy to do what he did then everyone would be doing it. It isn't and they aren't.

    For a not so perfect but possibly somewhat representational example:

    It's like comparing this:

    [​IMG]

    to this:

    [​IMG]

    Now in terms of storytelling let's take the basics. You are on a sand planet and you need to travel vast distances in a short time. Both accomplish this. We understand the context around Anakin because we know the story. We don't for Rey at this point.

    In terms of visual storytelling it's took Lucas some 18 months of post-production to get to his movie (not counting pre-production work) while JJ only has about a year and this doesn't even count the fact that we are talking the second movie of the PT which means it was 5 years on TPM and then 3 years on AOTC to create the overall visual style. JJ has less than 3 years from being hired to the first finished movie of the ST plus he's not doing the next two anyway.

    There is really nothing wrong with the first image but the layering of visual storytelling for a simple scene is staggering and that is in every frame of the PT nevermind the same thing that he of course did on the OT in the first place but not to that degree that the technology allowed.

    Just one more basic example within Lucas' own development of visual storytelling through technology:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It doesn't mean the simpler and less visual scene is not doing what it's supposed to but neither is it being all it can be IF you have the ability to do it. Obviously in a 1977 movie you couldn't do what you could in a 2005 movie. So in a 2015 movie looking like you are in something akin to 1977 is a deliberate choice.

    Again I only use these for their visual similarities and I do not mean to harp on these exact shots but strictly as examples of what you can do and apply to any shot.
     
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  24. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Has anyone here heard of such thing as a 'Master Theory' in art or Filmmaking? Who are the major proponents/detractors?
     
  25. Danfromumbrella

    Danfromumbrella Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 20, 2014
    As I've always said, more doesn't always equal better even with Star Wars. I prefer the very simple look of the teaser footage. The tie fighters on the water, the empty barren desert..... I love it. Focus more on the characters in the universe and less on the universe around the characters.
     
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