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Discussion John Boyega (Finn) in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by RX_Sith, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Finn wasnt sidelined for Kylo.
    He was sidelined for Poe and Rose.

    Lets hope it doesnt happen in 9.
     
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  2. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I want character complexity because it's what draws me to characters and I watch stories a lot of the time for the characters. If there aren't characters that draw my interest then the story has to make up for this in other ways or else I just have no interest in watching it. My point about the message is that in TLJ I feel like the messages override the characters. Characters serve messages rather than messages arising out of characters and their worlds and choices. The former is forced/artificial/empty while the latter is rich and more organic.

    Huh. I remember Lando ordering the evacuation of Cloud City in my VHS copies that don't contain the GL additions. That was the main point about Lando is that when he says he's responsible for the people in Cloud City, he's not kidding. He's the city administrator. He's trying to create a place free/safe from the Empire and then they show up on his doorstep. He initially makes the mistake of thinking that he can bargain with the Empire and save the city, but as the deals with Vader keep getting worse and worse it becomes apparent to him there is no bargaining with the Empire. They will take the city. They will take whatever they want. It's not that he has to choose between Han and his city--he's already lost both. This is why I think Lando joined the Rebellion. He learned there are no safe havens from the Empire, and when they come, they take it all.

    I'm interested in Finn's feeling about the FO because they inform his actions regarding the FO. How he goes from his state in the beginning of TLJ to that in the end is all about what happens on his "journey" and his feelings regarding it. Since he's in this story in which he has to choose a side--Resistance or no side--how he feels about the FO is very relevant. He chooses the Resistance because he is choosing to fight the FO.

    I really don't think Finn was deserting regardless because he had never committed to the Resistance to begin with, as TLJ goes on to show. Finn wanted to leave though because he believed the Resistance was done for. The FO could track them through hyperspace and they were going to run out of fuel. So if Rey returned to them, she'd be returning to a death trap. He was trying to save Rey and himself. After Rose and him thought of an alternative and it seemed that the Resistance actually could be saved, that's when he changed his plan. It was still though about saving Rey--this time by saving the Resistance so that when she returned it wouldn't be to a death trap. But along the way, Finn came to embrace the cause of the Resistance itself (and that is the part of the arc I thought needed to be better conveyed).

    Well, yes, TLJ backtracked on Finn's arc. I thought that the Finn story in TFA covered his choosing the Resistance just fine. He stood up to Phasma and Kylo, which can be seen as overcoming his fear. Since fear of the FO was the main reason he wanted to run, that reason would be gone. But I guess in TLJ, it wasn't about fear as much as that he still has this more selfish orientation at his core--and that IMO goes back to his characterization in TFA. It's there in TFA, but it's not very clear IMO. I think from the very beginning Finn could have been better characterized.
     
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  3. Mana

    Mana Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Kylo was always going to be important in the story as he is the last Skywalker in the Skywalker saga. His fall was what set the whole story in motion in the first place.
    But TFA promised us the trilogy was primarily going to follow the journies of Rey, Finn and Kylo...so you could argue that Finn was sidelined in favor of Poe who, even in Rian Johnson's own words was a pretty static character to begin with, with no growth in TFA, but was given a major overshadowing arc in what was supposed to be Finn's plot.
    I wanted to see more of Finn, but I hope we'll get that in 9 and he'll take the center stage in the Resistance like he's meant to.
     
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  4. BlurryUFOs

    BlurryUFOs Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    stormtroopers don’t hinder the resistance enough for a rebellion to be satisfying for me, they are there to be shot like always, who cares what side they're on. loosing soldiers is damaging logically and some good writing can pull it off but it could have been better with tangible stakes, seed sown in previous episodes of this trilogy. it’s such a cop out honestly to use this, mildly interesting and very convenient.

    if JJ does go with it and he implied that he liked the idea, i’d like for it to be on the smaller side. Finn rallies some of the troops on 1 star destroyer, commandeers it and use that to deal damage. this could show ingenuity, tact , and keeps it personal instead of just adding numbers to the resistance. i don’t want stormtrooper #247 to become resistance member #13, or an army of Finns who have way too much operational knowledge and are simple conveniences for the writers to use. unfortunately i think that’s exactly what would happen.

    i’d like to hear from proponents of a strmtrpr rebellion, how would you like it to go, what would you do with them
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  5. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Rian talks about Finn and his arc at 42:20. I think he totally failed to convey Finn actually changing and learning anything in the actual movie. People make fun of that crappy line Rose gives him after his failed sacrifice when (I think) the point is supposed to be that he's too blinded by hate to see that his sacrifice would be pointless, and he needs to fight for love instead of hate. It was done terribly in the movie and no one got what the message was.
     
    forever_jedi likes this.
  6. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    A lot of things just didn't gel together. Like someone mentioned, he either didn't get enough focus, or a lot of his stuff was cut.

    Which is a shame. He had a lot of stuff set up for a hero's journey.
     
    Star war likes this.
  7. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    @11-4D Yeah I"m sorry that was the dumbest "lesson" in all of Star Wars. Hating evil is perfectly fine. Hell even the Bible says it somewhere. You're kinda supposed to. Finn was literally about to sacrifice himself in order to SAVE what he LOVED. So Rian's BS lesson was beyond stupid and unnecessary to someone like Finn, who was literally raised to hate and kill. Let the dude be angry for once geez. Finn has all the reason in the world to hate the First Order. Doesn't make him many less of a good man.

    Why didn't Rose stop Finn from letting Phasma die? Clearly when he fought her he looked like he was fighting out of hatred. He looked like he wanted to absolutely destroy her. Maybe Finn should've stopped Rose from shooting at her then? MAKE UP YOUR MIND DAMMIT.

    Hell, he planned to (temporarily) depart from the Resistance to make sure Rey (who he loved) was safe. That wasn't done out of hatred yet he gets punished for it. This movie was so stupid and inconsistent it baffles me honestly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  8. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I got the message but I didn't feel it because there's nothing in the movie to make us feel Finn's hatred for the FO. Rose talks about how the FO took everything from the poor mining world she and Paige were from while Finn says nothing. Rose's sister just died. Finn is angry at DJ for betraying them. But there's just no Finn scenes to show the build up to the level of hate that is behind his attempting to fly into the cannon. There's just nothing from FINN himself to show us his thoughts and feelings that lead to that. I put it together that this is what the arc was, but I can't feel it at all in the movie.

    And this is why I feel like Rose takes away from Finn by telling him what to think and feel because it's all about Rose and Finn is eclipsed behind that. Instead of them getting to know one another, Rose kind of talks at him a lot. I didn't feel like we were getting to know Finn better or more deeply.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  9. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I'm excited to see Finn's new costume. Maybe he will be a general now?
     
  10. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Honestly I'm not even sure what the hell he was in TLJ. All the listings just have him labeled "Resistance Fighter" or "Resistance Hero" or something like that. Position wise, I really wouldn't mind seeing him become a pilot or some sort of agent. He didn't really stand out costume wise in TLJ.
     
    Jedi Jessy likes this.
  11. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    And i dont know what he will be in 9 according to Luke's monologue?
     
  12. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    We have just posted a new rules and policy thread. Everyone should take a look:
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    This part in particular:

    Make no mistake from here on out the staff here will be vigilant and absolutely unforgiving in its enforcement of this rule. Above all else these forums are meant to be a fun place to discuss Star Wars but for far too long they've been little more than a cesspool. No more. If you want to rant endlessly about how awful the films were or if you refuse to hear any kind of criticism about them I have only one thing to say... go get your own blog and post there. If you wish to engage in constructive conversation that remain respectful of one another then please stay. There is no middle ground. This is how it's going to be. To paraphrase a certain campaign slogan... We're Gonna Make the Forums Fun Again!
     
  13. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    He's gonna start another war. (about love of course)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  14. TheLastHaterOfZero

    TheLastHaterOfZero Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2016
    His Battlefront II bio claims he's "a leader of the Resistance", I'm guessing alongside Rey and Poe, but it's been a while since I've seen it, so I may be mistaken.
     
  15. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017
    I could not disagree more. A Storm Trooper Rebellion would make sense if they had bothered to explicitly lay the ground work for it in TLJ which would have inevitably forced them to talk more about his background and given insight into the events that shaped him into who we see currently. They don't even hint at a Rebellion or even so much as hint at any other ST showing a moment of doubt in the FO doctrine. In fact, the only reaction we know for certain from the ST is in TFA (where he is explicitly called a traitor) and in TLJ where they set up to publicly execute him as a traitor (choosing to behead him because taking a blaster shot was too good for him - Phasma's words). How his fellow ST viewed him and continue to view him is evident.

    Your premise is based on Kylo running the FO into the ground; something that isn't foreshadowed or hinted at in any way. First, under Snoke's leadership they lost SKB, the Dreadnaught, the Supremacy and 8 other SD in Holdo Hyper Space Attack in roughly one week. You think Kylo can do worse than that? And even if he did... there were no signs of FO troops losing resolve when it happened under Snoke. There were no signs of troopers loosing resolve when Kylo had his Force Tantrums. Kylo seems like a pretty competent strategist (he out-thought a Force Being who was reading his mind), you think being taken in by a Force Ruse (executed by Luke) will shake their belief in his ability to lead? If so, I disagree. There is no ground work laid at all for a rebellion, and having set none up in TLJ, it would make no sense (IMO) to say they disheartened with Kylo's future leadership. Since there will be a time jump and NOTHING has been set up except Resistance Fighter, they can take him any direction (including Rebellion), but any direction he goes right now is going to feel like it came out of left field, since it isn't set up.
     
  16. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Besides, setting up something as complex as what is mentioned here would have required some effort to flesh out the galaxy from a political perspective when it comes to the New Republic's behavior prior to and during The Force Awakens and Snoke's motivations and the First Order's origins. None of those things have really happened so largely, doing something like portraying infighting at the last minute would be really unsatisfying and would seem entirely like an eleventh hour thing. Hopefully, the ST shows why planning things out before starting a trilogy is a valuable thing to consider.
     
  17. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    @rayjefury I think the VD mentioned about how Kylo's sense of judgement can be blinded by his emotions. Not those exact words but that's basically the message it was sending. And to be honest, the recurring issue I've seen from the ST is how the big bads of the First Order never end up being as unstoppable as they appear to be.

    In TFA alone, Kylo's defeated multiple times, Hux bails on his troopers ("we won't survive! even hux is gone!"), Snoke does nothing, and Phasma...well, yeah.
    In TLJ, Snoke is easily defeated, Kylo falls for Luke's ruse and lets the Rebels escape, Hux gets tossed around constantly, and Phasma is wasted yet again.

    So at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Finn was able to reach at least a healthy amount of Stormtroopers. Enough to get the job done at least and make a serious difference. It's obvious that FO leadership isn't top notch.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  18. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Honestly i dont think any leadership is top notch in ST.

    Resistance isnt any better either.

    Poe was an idiot and arrogant to the point that he got his own people killed.

    Resistance has like 20 people, no army, no weapons, ships etc

    Atleasy FO has endless resources.

    And now Poe will lead the resistance. Why? Well just bcoz i guess.

    Regarding the stromtooper rebellion, Finn was killing the stromtoopers left and right in TFA and TLJ.

    Why suddenly he will want to save them?
    It will feel like if you are not on my side you are enemy and i am going to kill you.

    I would rather have Finn lead the resistance so i can actually root for them to win.

    Bcoz right now i am really not interested in watching Poe's arrogant self.

    Besides if i have to watch Finn go to FO base again for whatever reason in straight 3 movies, i might as well not watch it.

    Let Finn do something other than infilterate the FO.

    He is a different and unique character, let him do something different.
     
  19. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    @Star war I think you're being a little harsh on Poe and not on Rian and Holdo. Rian doesn't know how to write Poe. If you read the comics (or saw TFA), there's no way Poe would act that way. As for Holdo, she didn't really give him much of a choice considering when he asked about the plan, she insulted him and kept it a secret to EVERYONE. If anything, HOldo was the arrogant one in that situation. And Poe was just badly written (along with others).

    I could see Poe staging the mutiny when he feels something's definitely up, just not the beginning part with him getting people killed.

    I'm not gonna go into a huge rant about Rian's writing, but to me it sucked and he wasn't sure how to create conflict (on the Resistance side) without forcing a lot of unnecessary bs into the mix.

    I'm not sure how I feel about Finn being a leader as much as I just don't want him to be a follower. I don't want him to become too attached to any one group. I'm sure he could do it though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  20. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    I dont know, Poe was pretty arrogant in TFA too, the way he talked to Kylo.

    Its really a wonder Kylo didnt kill him.

    Holdo had no reason to tell him the plan after the stunt he pulled by getting his own people killed.

    Even Leia was mad at him and demoted him, rightfully so.

    Like Holdo said Poe is a trigger happy flyboy who likes to blow things up.
    Thats all he was in TFA.

    Besides Holdo sacrificed HER own life to save the resistance.
    While Poe sacrificed his team mates to win against the FO.

    No matter how much people make fun of Rose's line to Finn about winning the war, it IS a plot point in TLJ and Star Wars as a whole.

    And Poe still didnt learn his lesson.
    He still wants to "burn down FO" instead of restoring the republic.

    Thats why i think Finn will be a better leader.
    He clearly cares about people more than winning the war.
     
    Lost_Hope likes this.
  21. TheLastHaterOfZero

    TheLastHaterOfZero Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2016
    What's the likelihood of Finn being pitted against Poe in EPIX? I feel like that was something Rian tried to set up with the whole "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down" and "We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love". Considering how rare it is for a person to be both the 'ace' and the 'leader', I wouldn't be surprised if Finn's natural leadership skills (along with conflicting perspectives on say dealing with the FO Stormtrooper program) would push Poe out of decision-making, and back into the pilot seat. That being said, I'm not very privy to the idea that Leia was wrong to groom Poe as the next leader of the Resistance, and that Finn would just come in and take his place as leader of a more than likely temporary organization, though I fully expect that it'll happen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  22. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    "John Boyega was in a recording studio reading lines for Finn yesterday. I’m hoping this is for the new LEGO Star Wars game."

     
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  23. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Ughhh...this is gonna be an awkward Lego SW game. I gotta admit I got really happy for a moment because I was thinking about new Battlefront II content with him or some other Finn-centric project.

    @Star war I understand what you mean, but it's the fact that Holdo told NO ONE about her plan. She couldn't at least tell Poe that she HAD a plan at all. Maybe not give him all the details, but tell her that she has a plan that will work, and to stay calm.

    As for TFA, I don't think Poe's "who talks first?" line is him being arrogant. It's him trying to stay confident in front of certain death. I mean, that's like saying Finn's "rebel scum" line to Phasma is him being arrogant, a negative trait or something. I think that's a pretty normal hero trope.

    As for Poe wanting to burn down the FO before restoring the Republlic? I believe it's the only way to make sure the Republic can stand. Clearly we learned in TFA that they both can't be around at the same time. Same thing the OTT did after RotJ. Unless the Resistance suddenly got a huge boost in membership (they didnt at the end of TLJ) and they were able to push back the FO while rebuilding it. But again, no one was coming to help them on Crait.

    Also Rose's line still bothers me because Finn would've hypothetically helped save who he loved had he been able to damage the cannon. So I get the purpose of the line, but in that moment of context it doesn't hold up.

    @TheLastHaterOfZero That's something I never considered. So far all we've seen is Finn and Poe getting along constantly. And while I'd love for IX to mainly be about heroes working together, it would be something interesting to consider. At the very least them actually butting heads a little bit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    As far as Johnson, I don’t think he put any effort into Finn or Poe because he didn’t want to; I don’t know that it was a lack of ability on his part. But Poe from TFA was much better, and Finn in TFA actually existed as a character.

    I thought the “permission to blow things up” line was funny as was the taunting of Hux but none of that meshed with TFA Poe.

    I could see Poe and Finn leading different missions in IX, particularly with Finn infiltrating the First Order, which is something Poe would not know how to do.
     
    afrojedi likes this.
  25. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Well he atleast put more effort than JJ.

    Poe was barely a character in TFA.
    He was only there to blow things up. He did nothing else.

    Finn existed as Rey's sidekick in TFA.
    Who's life's mission was to save Rey at all times and help them misdirect from Rey being FS.

    Atleast Rian gave Finn reason to exist without Rey.

    Finn got overshadowed by Poe.
    Poe really should have died in TFA.

    Bcoz the resistance arc was for Finn to lead.
    And force arc was for Rey.

    But Finn got overshadowed by Poe bcoz he had strong connection with resistance than Finn.

    And Rey got overshadowed by the skywalkers bcoz this is their family story.

    I dont trust JJ to handle Finn better.

    I know i am probably being paranoid about JJ but i expected Finn to given importance as his own character in TFA.
    But he made Finn's character about Rey.

    So i really really hope that Finn has his own arc separate from Rey, Poe and Rose, which is about him and his motivations.
     
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