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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST John Boyega (Finn) in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by RX_Sith, Dec 12, 2017.

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  1. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 14, 2016
    I would probably say a better sense of agency to be honest. Don't get me wrong, she's not the star of the whole show, and you're not getting a huge group of people speculating on what her big arc is gonna be in Black Panther 2, but she felt like she at least fit in the narrative. Again, remove Finn (and Rose), and the story of TLJ feels the same. Also Nakia isn't seemingly basically abused by the narrative over and over again. Yeah she's saved a couple times (nothing wrong with that), but it's not the main thing people remember about her character. And it's not seen as a detriment because her character still fills in a necessary role in the story.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  2. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I agree Finn could use more agency in the sense that Rose kind of had more than Finn did. If Finn was removed from the movie though, the FO/Resistance conflict at the end probably wouldn't have happened, Holdo wouldn't have rammed the Supremacy, Rey and Kylo possibly wouldn't have passed out leading to a possibly different outcome in the throne room.

    It's the argument that Finn was sidelined that I don't understand. Is it that if Finn doesn't spend most his time with Rey, he is side lined?

    Finn's lack of agency also concerns lack of purpose. He should have discovered purpose in TFA IMO, because that would provide two movies of acting on that purpose instead of only one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  3. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    He was sidelined because he became second fiddle to Poe in the Resistance plot.

    Everyone agrees that Poe was the lead of the Resistance plot, not Finn.
     
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  4. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Okay, I can agree with this. Finn does have more screen time than either Poe or Rose, but it doesn't necessarily feel like it. It does feel like he got a bit squished between Poe and Rose.
     
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  5. modaubr

    modaubr Jedi Knight star 1

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    Mar 13, 2016
    The more I think about it, the more I consider TLJ as an 'ensemble' movie : in such kind of movies, characters don't really have time to develop or find purpose because there are too many of them. If they are stereotypical, or have strong, well defined features, it works but when you take Finn, a character which precisely is defined by him looking for a purpose, a goal or a role, it does not really fit. Especially compared to characters such as Poe and Rose, who have a stronger basis.
     
  6. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Poe outranks Finn. And Poe's storyline is about becoming "The Leader." So you're going to see Poe delegate Finn and others, whether you want to or not.

    But Finn is the one that went out on a "journey" while Poe was on lockdown. Poe was literally grounded.

    It's just that the movie should have shown more growth and impact during the time it focused on Finn's journey. That I agree with.
     
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  7. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    That's why @modaubr mentions it's the lack of growth in this ensemble type ST that dilutes Finn's story. Michael Burnham is subordinate to Lorca, Saru, etc, but she's the lead. There's no mistaking that because of the way they've written the character. As strong as an actor Boyega is, he's still overshadowed by Poe and Rose. The writing had a lot to do with that.
     
  8. Han Drolo

    Han Drolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 9, 2014
    The thing that holds back everyone's arcs in TLJ, imo is the almost desperate need by the creators to mirror the ESB circumstances of all of our heroes being backed into a corner. "Failure is the best teacher" and all that Jazz which is nice , but I think it undermined Rey's character because she almost becomes subservient to Kylo Ren's development despite being the main character. With Poe his characterization was changed completely to develop more of his character. In the sense of Finn in particular , I think it'd would've been better served for his personal arc for him to be the catalyst of a victory or even the sole victory for the Resistance. But in rapid succession that was usurped by Holdo, Rose and Luke. Characters we barely know thus lack an emotional connection with or who have already enough amazing triumphs under their belt that anything that comes after aside from death pales in comparison.

    We all agree the Lightspeed scene with Holdo was cool, visually and even narratively, but how many of you actually cared she was gone? How many of us actually had our throats swell and stomach drop when Finn was going nose first into that cannon? But some how Rian had to ruin it by Robbing Finn of any and all agency. Finn could've easily jumped from the speeder in time for Rose to catch him with hers and it would've still served a similar purpose of displaying the camaraderie , but instead we once again have a scene where Finn seems undermined by another character holding his hand or having to force feed the social implications of any situation. I get that some of this is to be expected as this is a growing character but the growing for what part should not be taken for granted.


    Whether it be the force, Storm Trooper rebellion or ultimately becoming the main cause of The First Order's systematic demise, Finn's actions should have impact and not aimless conjecture about who he should fight for, when that was already solved in part during the conclusion of now both TFA AND TLJ, the guy got his back sliced open for crying out loud and there was not even a moment of reflection or emphasis on his trauma during that film.

    IX has to utilize the intriguing concept they presented with Finn in TFA, they could go Jedi or ST Liberator. ( no pun)

    But if I see Rey soloing the KoR plus redeeming Kylo after , I think I'm done with the main saga for now. The past seems much more interesting if Solo is any indication. (side note : Wish we could see Dave Filoni write for Finn.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  9. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    Wish I could like the above 2 times!
     
  10. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    But see, that's the thing.

    Who Finn fights for wasn't resolved in TFA.
    Because Finn's storyline got an abrupt ending in TFA, when he was put into a coma.

    All other characters in TFA got resolution except for Finn.


    If Finn was still wide awake at the conclusion of TFA and settled his unresolved issues with Rey, how he's now staying with the Resistance while she goes to find Luke, etc. then his plot in TLJ would be a different story.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  11. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 14, 2016
    Well he's wide awake at the end of TLJ, and pretty much everyone's in line with the Resistance now, so hopefully he's able to really...you know, matter? With Phasma gone, and Hux pretty much a non-threat, I'd really love for him to be able to have his own agenda that, like stated above, plays a vital role in helping save the day.

    Stormtrooper Uprising and FinnRey vs KoR/Kylo just honestly both sound cool and make sense.
    They aren't stretches at all at this point, given where the heroes and villains are. And yeah, I gotta admit, having Rey solo defeat the KoR and then defeat/turn Kylo would be the most boring thing in the world at this point.

    So the way I see it, Stormtrooper Uprising to set Finn apart from everyone else, and then Finn helping against the KoR to still put emphasis on his bond with Rey. Both parties (Resistance and Rey) should be happy. And finally no one can call him useless or a coward.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  12. TheGhostOfZero

    TheGhostOfZero Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 5, 2016
    Had some thoughts on how TLJ could have turned out more satisfying, if Rian used more traditional storytelling devices (I know, I know, subverting expectations and whatnot) using most of the same themes and scenes. After watching Star Trek Beyond, more and more do I believe that the Resistance should have been captured once the Supremacy arrived in the first act. Finn and Rose get unintentionally jettisoned to a safe place, and Poe loses a dogfight against Kylo when he decided to go into the field.

    Finn tries to dodge helping the Resistance because of the risk to Rey and his own PTSD, while Rose tries to convince him to accept his role as a hope bringer for the Resistance. Poe acts recklessly in First Order custody when Phasma and Hux ceremoniously begins executing his comrades, but receives wisdom (learns to chill) from Leia. Kylo has second thoughts about Leia, and makes moves to team up with Rey to kill Snoke.

    Luke refuses to leave Ach-To since he's yet to find the answer/resolution he desires, forcing Rey to team up with Kylo out of desperation to save the Resistance. This turns out to be a mistake when Kylo decides to take the throne for himself, despite killing Snoke and his Praetorian Guards, basically the Throne Room scene goes mostly untouched. At the same time, Finn and Rose sneak aboard the Supremacy, and despite being nearly executed, Rose manages to free the remaining Resistance captives, while a dangerously motivated Finn confronts Phasma.

    This is where it gets fuzzy for me without changing it too much, as the only way the Resistance barely got away in TLJ is because of Holdo's lightspeed ram, and the only way that would happen is if the space chase happened, and the First Order were too stupid to destroy the Raddus when they should have. I would still have the Resistance make their last stand on Crait, Luke would confront Kylo, and Rey and Finn reunite at the end.

    Holdo and DJ are largely missing from my retelling since they're more narrative devices than dynamic characters, but I do acknowledge that there are continuity errors upon removing them (No Holdo, no ram. No DJ, no betrayal). If Leia was allowed to die, Kylo could plot to kill Snoke for his mother, and Poe could instead be mentored by Holdo.

    Since I'm not rewriting the film completely or creating new characters to fill the void of underutilized characters, I'm aware that following the line TLJ followed would require a leap in the reader's suspension of disbelief on how they reach Crait's surface again without the lightspeed ram, even if the FO had originally stopped them in its atmosphere in the first act.

    I suppose it would be easier to say that the same effect could be achieved in TLJ without drastic scene changes, if their was better time management and a focus on making certain characters motivations feel less like leaps (Rey attacking Luke for Kylo, Finn's suicide run, Rose's confession, maybe more).
     
  13. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Something else I realized. Black Panther and TLJ both had Casino scenes that resulted in a failure. In fact BP's scene causes W'kabi to lose faith in T'Challa and for Killmonger to walk into Wakanda and take power. To be fair BP's Casino sequence was shorter, but perhaps it still provides a viable roadmap for TLJ's version.

    All right, RJ's original idea was to have FInn and Rose help the Master Code breaker steal from a Warlord....so let's go with that...only this time it's a rescue...as the Warlord is holding their Code Breaker prisoner. It's all very much on the fly but Finn and Rose pull it off, taking down the Warlords body guards and saving the Code Breaker they need...while also seeing that the rich are profiting from this conflict and that the Resistance has bought supplies from the Warlord...putting into FInn's mind doubt about who he is working with, the Code Breaker trying to use that to convince Finn to come with her/him once this is done 'You're good in a fight, why don't you come with me after this job?'

    They infiltrate the Supremacy and are captured...only for the Code Breaker to betray them...which hurts Finn even more "We saved your life...you murdering B****/B******!"

    Code Breaker: "And I do appreciate that, believe me I will raises a glass to you both later." things proceed as we've seen.

    This way you've tightened up the Casino sequence, given Finn a chance to take down some dangerous guards, given the entire a thing a more interesting action sequence, and made the Code Breakers betrayal even more emotionally painful.

    You also set up a way to bring Maz into the final episode. Have her be LIVID that the person she recommended screwed everyone over like that. You could have MAz dump said Code Breaker at Finn and Rose's feet in the next film as an apology.

    but hey...I'm just an amateur....what do I know about story telling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  14. Akane

    Akane Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 20, 2018
    [​IMG]

    The Supremacy Infiltration

    Sounds a little like a Jason Bourne title, but this refers to Finn, Rose, DJ, and BB-8’s mission to shut down the tracking device aboard Supreme Leader Snoke’s star destroyer, the Supremacy.

    (There isn’t a shot from this new scene, but here’s a behind-the-scenes image.)

    In the film, we saw them steal First Order uniforms to venture deeper into the heart of enemy territory, but in this extended sequence their journey gets upended when Finn is recognized by one especially garrulous Stormtrooper, who begins chatting with them in an elevator. He’s just sure he knows Finn from somewhere.

    “Sneaking through the mega-destroyer, there’s some really fun stuff in there,” Johnson tells EW. “It just made me laugh every time I saw it. But you can see very obviously when you watch the movie as a whole, there’s no way you would want to slow down at that part of the film to play that whole section.”

    The scene does reveal an interesting bit of lore, however…

    After this Stormtrooper ultimately recognizes him, Finn realizes that the First Order has covered up his defection and role in helping the Resistance destroy Starkiller Base. Rather than sound the alarm, the good ‘ol boy trooper just has a hardy laugh that his old troopmate FN-2187 was promoted to officer status ahead of him.

    “The implication from the exchange is that this was obviously an embarrassment that this happened with Finn, and that First Order didn’t let the info get out, as much as they could,” Johnson says. “The tension is broken by the fact that he doesn’t really know the story of what happened with Finn.”

    Source: https://sleemo.tumblr.com
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  15. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Not upset they cut this then, we had enough comedy up to this point, time to buckle down and deal with the dramatic stuff.

    I think I see why this was cut....I mean if Finn's defection is being covered up...then a public execution might just raise some questions. Now if these movies were being written (or at least outlined) at the same time you could USE that for some interesting storytelling opportunities in the final film...however since each writer/director is being handed their own fiefdom (for good or ill) that is simply not guaranteed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  16. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    They could have kept that though and made it a private execution.

    I kind of wish Hux had given a speech if it was a public execution meant to hammer home a point about the traitor.

    The scene as is, is in between. For instance it could be that he's being executed as a recently promoted officer who committed treason rather than as a defecting stormtrooper. I kind of like that idea because if he was being executed as a defecting stormtrooper that could inadvertently encourage other troopers to defect. It's a better message to execute as a recently promoted officer who blew it as that is more likely to encourage the other troopers not to make that sort of mistake.

    It would be nice if whatever it was, was in the movie though.
     
  17. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    https://www.cinemablend.com/news/23...tar-wars-the-last-jedi-fight-originally-ended

    Finn calling out Phasma and her in turn shooting the surrounding troopers I like. The fact that her helmet is damaged before Finn is surrounded works as well. However...I dislike the idea of Finn being 'Soundly beaten' unless they are saying she calls in help and that's why he can't win. I also dislike her being taken out by a fireball instead of soundly knocked down by Finn. In the end, short as the scene is I think I prefer how it was seen in film. That said, I think you COULD'VE worked in the head games without having Finn lose a fight. For example, have him slowly gaining the upper hand...and then get surrounded by gun toting troopers....at which point he can't deliver the finishing blow...so he reveals Phasma's cowardice, expecting/hoping to turn the Troopers on Phasma...only for her to kill most of them. In a strange reversal have Finn end up saving one trooper by smacking Phasma upside the head and the fight resumes...ending with Finn standing tall and Phasma on the ground before plunging into fire.

    It still has the pacing issue...but I feel it's a better fit to show Finn's growth and Phasma's treachery...and lay the ground work for at least some Storm Troopers to leave the First Order in the final film. Afterall if Phasma shoots them in the back while Finn (Rebel Scum) saved one...THAT might be the catalyst to get them thinking about the morality of what they are doing.
     
  18. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    The mental game between them was what was missing. Meh.

    It seems like TLJ suffers from having some scenes not written quite right necessitating them being cut, and then overall the movie suffers from over-cutting. Meanwhile, the Canto Bight sequence is quite long. And really so is the space chase.

    What's annoying about the cutting is also the loss of dialogue. People don't talk enough in some scenes to let us know what's going on and why it's interesting.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  19. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Prediction! Rey dies and Finn is tapped by the Force to become a Jedi.
     
  20. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 28, 2016
    I still want to believe they will make Finn a Force User. I don't forget that they used him as red herring in TFA
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] link
     
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  21. modaubr

    modaubr Jedi Knight star 1

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    Mar 13, 2016
    On a side note, this Q&A session is kind of strange : Mark, Daisy & John do not hesitate to share openly their reservations over a few things, even though Rian is two seats away. Nothing big, they are all professional and spin things in a positive manner but still I'm pretty sure I have never seen anything like this in any promotion tour.

    Regarding Finn, I don't think he will ever be an active force user and maybe it's for the best for him, because I mean they are all pretty messed up. Even poor Rey, I'm curious to see how she will embrace her destiny, this weight she has on the shoulders.

    Something that I see for Finn though is more something like a leap of faith, a brief moment where he has to let go and believe in the Force to achieve something beyond reason. Like Chirrut with the master switch, Jyn praying to the Kyber crystal when R1 arrives on Scarif or even Luke when he switched off the flight computer during the trench run. It's the Force in its full glory, coming in when unexpected, not rock lifting, not mind probes, not frozen laser bolts or lightsaber skills. That's what I want for Finn, the force helping the helpless, in a subtle manner, so subtle that we are not even sure that it's the force. Give me that for Finn and I will be at peace.
     
  22. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    JJ Abrams MIGHT go in that direction...but just inserting Force Use into Finn is not the answer in my opinion. If anything, with this possibly being the end of the Skywalkers, and with Chirrut being an example...it's LONG past time that we show that Force Users are NOT unassailable. I saw we have Finn take down The KoR...those students of Luke's that followed Kylo into darkness.
     
  23. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Anything is possible. If the Force flows through everything then it’s already in Finn. Somebody just has to tell him how to tap into it.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I also would not want the message to be sent that Finn has to be a Force user to be valuable. I would not be opposed to his being revealed as Force sensitive but I certainly do not think it’s necessary.
     
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  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Rey kisses Finn, Finn gets the Force then says “so that’s how the Force works!”:p
     
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