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Discussion John Boyega (Finn) in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by RX_Sith, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I mean didn't Rian cut out a potentially emotional moment for Finn near the beginning of the film just to give us yet a "make Finn the but of jokes/pratfall humor" thing yet again? And his only reason for doing so apparently that he "didn't feel like" doing an emotional moment there?
     
  2. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I think this is a ridiculous question, because the entire structure, content, and style of the film is deeply tied into it being a part of a series. But if you’re wondering whether people think TLJ is good on its own merits, then the answer is yes. Absolutely.

    Because something isn’t crap just because you say it is crap? I personally found the scenes between Kylo and Rey to be very well done and nicely explained.

    - She chooses to help Finn and BB-8 get to the Resistance
    - She chooses to fight Kylo Ren
    - She chooses to go hunt for Luke Skywalker
    - She chooses to leave Ahch-to to try and save Ben Solo.
    - She chooses to reject Kylo’s offer of power and control
    - Ultimately, she chooses to become a Jedi.

    In what world does this show a lack of agency?
     
  3. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    -She's literally chased off of Jakku at blaster-point by the FO. It's not like Luke, who had already made the choice to leave and train with Obi Wan before going to Mos Eisley's. Rey had no choice, she had to leave or die.

    -She had no choice but to fight Kylo either, she was cornered and it was fight or be captured again.

    -And the movie does a terrible job of showing her reasoning for that.

    -A massively contrived decision that makes her look like an idiot.

    -Too little too late.

    -Again, why?

    It shows a poorly-written character arc full of holes and contrivances.

    As for the movie overall, it'd still be a terrible-written poorly-conceived film even if it wasn't part of the SW franchise. Being such a terrible continuation of what came before, just makes it worse.
     
  4. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    On the one hand, this scene shows me WHY Rian Johnson is getting his own trilogy...this was good stuff that just needed a little work to make it epic. In a relatively short space we deal with Phasma's actions, show that Storm Troopers can think for themselves when provided with new information and show Finn taking Phasma's hand then blowing her away instead of freezing like he did in TFA. On the other hand, Rian apparently cut the scene for time and I feel that was a misstep on his part.

    I think, to distinguish himself, RJ tried to inject more humor into this film, so it wouldn't be as 'Dark' as other second acts....but I don't think he's as funny as he thinks he is when it comes to film making...hence us getting the Luke milk scene.

    If I were to advise RJ during the scripting process...I'd say lose the humor, make sure to keep in things like the Finn/Phasma scene, and make it clear in the films final act that our heroes have learned from their mistakes and are progressing forward (rebuilding after the deconstructing).

    I do hope JJ (since he liked the script and this was in the script) makes use of this deleted scene. Have Phasma become a Martyr after her death, an inspiration for the troopers...only for Finn to find proof she lowered the shields and release that...leading to confusion in the Storm Trooper Ranks...don't have to cause a mass defection...just cause enough of them to question what they've been told.
     
  5. modaubr

    modaubr Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2016
    There is something is quite don't understand about this scene. Is it supposed to replace the one we got or is it supposed to take place after the one in the movie ? Is Finn standing on the platform that he fell onto in TLJ ? I don't get how these two scenes are supposed to mesh ...
     
  6. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    http://www.slashfilm.com/finn-love-interest/

    John...JJ likes you, he's the one that wanted to work with you...he's likely on your side when it comes to making Finn stronger as I genuinely believe that was always his intent. This is your chance to ensure Finn's glorious future....we can't save Rey...she's lost...but Finn could still rise to the occasion.

    Addendum: I'm kidding about Rey

    I always KNEW you were sensible and smart, John. You've been a wonderful team player...and Daisy likely would be onboard with this as well since she missed working with you. You're going to talk to JJ soon, go for the hat trick and give the fans the best ending possible at this point.
     
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  7. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    The scene we got in TLJ flows into this moment...so FInn strikes down Phasma, cracking her helmet as he rises, then she climbs up after him and we get the follow on scene.

    Addendum:

    Looking at John Boyega's interview....well all cards on the table.

    I'm biased....I honestly Believe Finn could and should end this series on a high note. I feel that everyone got hit with the deconstruction bat in TLJ, which is fine...you can knock a character back...so long as they next take at least two steps forward. So I will forgive a LOT...if Episode 9 has Finn defeating Luke's former students (Whether or not Finn has force powers) and beginning a romantic relationship with Rey....don't even need a big damn kiss....just the two sitting on Achto- watching the waves and the sun rise as they lean into one another would be fine....especially if Kylo is in Jail/Rehab/Floating dead in space (Preferably the first or last options for Kylo). And if JJ should have Finn take down Kylo...while Rey deals with another issue (Using the force to save innocent lives or some such) then I'd just about wipe the Saga's 'debt'. Partially because it'd be an interesting arc to have Finn go from barely being able to survive fighting a trained Force User....to defeating the current Supreme leader of the First order...but mostly because I really like the idea of Rey taking Luke's words to heart 'It's so much bigger'...and ignoring Kylo Ren to save the day...

    Seriously...think about it...Kylo Ren is so angry and caught up in himself that the one thing Rey could do to infuriate him....is ignore him. Imagine his reaction when she turns her back on him, deciding to devote her last moments to preventing a catastrophe via the force...knowingly leaving herself open to his attack...but content in knowing that by doing so...she will do more for those people and the galaxy at large than if she faced Kylo and allowed this nightmare to occur....Then...just as an enraged Kylo is about to strike her down...Finn Snatches up Rey's lightsaber and uses it to defend her from Kylo Ren. Afterall...we should defend what we love, right Rose?

    It's a hard nasty fight, Finn keeps his calm, while Kylo Loses himself in rage...and that allows Finn to prevail....and for Rey to save a LOT of lives.

    .......No one steal that...I'm going to use it in the contest.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  8. modaubr

    modaubr Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Got it: instead of falling into the flames, she falls onto a pile of trash I guess, she climbs up and here we go with the deleted scene.
    It also explains why Boyega was surprised by how short the scene was. Thanks !
     
  9. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    The scene we got in the film was apart of reshoots.
     
  10. Adept

    Adept Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    I'm curious....RJ wanted Finn to confront the 'Grey' aspects of the galaxy....that people were making money off this war (and suffering including his own) and that the good guys were forced to deal with these same people to fight a greater tyranny. He also, at some point, clearly wanted Finn to use Phasma's past actions to get the upper hand on her...allowing him to dispatch her...and for us to see just how self serving the First Order and it's leaders really were....I want to hear what you all would've done to accomplish that goal within the movie as seen. Rey/Poe/Kylo etc are more or less the same....so pitch me an arc with worlds and characters that weaves through the established frame work.
     
  11. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Yes he was supposed to be an elite stormtrooper trainee, top one percent in fact. This is explicitly stated in the Before the Awakening novel which is considered canon material. Misunderstandings like this are why so many are upset with the way he's been depicted in TFA and TLJ.
     
  12. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Being a well-trained soldier isn't anywhere near the same as being a battle-hardened soldier. He was completely inexperienced in actual combat, which is exactly what I wrote. And that makes all the difference in the world. No amount of training makes you a better soldier than those who have been trained and have fought in battle.
    At the time of TFA, he neither had the desire to fight, nor had he ever really engaged the enemy. And that most definately does make a difference, regardless of how well someone is trained.

    Additional canon material is just that, additional canon material. You cannot take that and declare it to be more important than the actual movie. It accompanies a movie, and when the material doesn't fit to what is in the movie, it is the movie that is correct, because that is the product the whole thing revolves around.
     
  13. Ryanpaulstewart

    Ryanpaulstewart Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2016
    Finn doesn't behave like a trained soldier, inexperienced or not. That's the problem. Introducing the realities of war into a SW film is a joke. In the OT, a naïve farm boy defeated Vader. A princess, now a general, thwarted the Empire. Han was promoted to general in one movie.

    In the ST--two movies in, a former soldier is best known for his exploits as a janitor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  14. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Except she could have just been “bye” when they escaped the First Order. Instead she offered to take Finn and BB-8 to D’Qar, even though she wanted to get back to Jakku as soon as possible.

    Again, this is false. She stayed behind and held Kylo Ren off, making sure BB-8 could escape. Then, on Starkiller Base, she chose to resist Ren and attempt to escape rather than accept what seemed like a hopeless situation.

    It does? I thought it was pretty clear. She had just discovered this massive power within her and and the massive power she had to battle. She intelligently chose to seek out the only person in the Galaxy who could help her.

    Decisions aren’t contrived (in the writing sense) just because they’re irrational. Rey is known to be emotional (see Takodana in the TFA) and has spent half the movie developing a bond with Kylo Ren. Given these factors, it makes sense that SHE would think he could be redeemed.

    That’s literally a non-argument.

    Because she learned to respect the power of the force on Ahch-To and because, more importantly, all her friends and loved ones were going to be freaking destroyed by Kylo Ren, along with the Galaxy. She chooses to get over her personal issues and desire for answers in order to do what needs to be done- save the Galaxy.

    As for the film itself, it would still be a well-written, masterfully conceived film even if it wasn’t part of the SW franchise. Being such a great continuation of what came before, just makes it better.

    Listen, this isn’t the Rey thread, so I don’t want to drag this out too much. But I honestly can’t let blatantly false claims like “Rey has no agency” slide by.
     
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  15. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Yeah, it's canon except when the directors don't feel like it. That's the extent of Before the Awakening's canonicity at this point.
     
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  16. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I said this in the novelization thread. If Finn was trained by people the likes of Phasma and Hux who suck at everything, it's not surprising if he doesn't match people's ideals of an "elite trooper."

    Phasma and Hux are laughable in TLJ. The entire FO is incompetent and silly. It wouldn't make sense at this point if they train their people well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  17. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    It's kinda funny that the FO is extreme and over-the-top when they don't need to be, but very lenient and stupid when they shouldn't be.

    Like, "let's blow up five planets and completely shatter the galaxy's only form of government because we want a single droid, instead of threatening them first to have them at our mercy."

    But then when the Resistance is literally at their mercy, right in front of them, "Let's just kinda tail-gate juuuuust far enough behind them that we can't finish them off but they also know we're behind them. Yeah. That sounds about right. Can't be too extreme or anything."

    FFS guys get it together.
     
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  18. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    No, it most certainly is not a joke, it is exactly what you can see in the movies as well. And you grossly misrepresent what is actually happening in the OT, and the ST for that matter. It was not "a naïve farm boy" that defeated Vader, it was a Jedi who had fought in a war for years, who was a rebel commander and leader of Rogue Squadron on Hoth, and who had fought and lost against Vader before. Not to mention that Vader was deeply conflicted in ROTJ and couldn't really bring himself to killing his son either. Leia didn't "thwart" the Empire, she was part of a group who did that. As a political leader who occasionally fought as well (ignoring the fact that she was also force sensitive). Han Solo was also not promoted to general "in one movie". He was with the rebellion for years, starting off at the end of ANH. He was made general in ROTJ, as leader of the rebel strike force on Endor.

    You can't just ignore that the OT happened over multiple years, while the ST so far played in a matter of days, or weeks at best. There is a ton of stuff that happened in between the OT-movies, which gets hinted at in the movies themself.

    Finn is most definately not "best known for his exploits as a janitor either". He helped save Poe, the best pilot in the resistance, he helped penetrate Starkiller Base - you know, the very mission that Rose and other resistence members consider him to be a hero for - and he took down Phasma in TLJ. Suggesting that he wasn't allowed to do anything in these two movies is flat out wrong.

    I don't see how that is the case at all. Why exactly would they threaten the Republic? Their goal is to destroy it, not to give them a warning in advance so that the Republic can take measures against them. The Republic fleet is stronger than theirs, they need to destroy it so that it can't be used against them. It would have been utterly stupid to threaten the Republic instead of destroying it. In destroying the core-worlds of the Republic, they not only take down the fleet, but they also cut off the head, leaving the galaxy not only in shock but without any leaders or connections. From that point on, everyone is on their own, making systems much weaker than they would have been if the FO had merely threatened the Republic.

    And no, they don't just "tailgate", the whole thing has been explained in the movie, and rather clearly at that. They are not fast enough to catch up to the resistence ships, but also not so slow that they could be left behind. The resistence was in a trap, one they couldn't escape from, because they lacked the means to outrun them and couldn't jump to hyperspace either, because the First Order could track them. There was no other action that would have been superior to the one the FO took.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  19. Ryanpaulstewart

    Ryanpaulstewart Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 13, 2016
    Granted, the ST takes place in an extremely short period of time - days, really, but your post: "Being a well-trained soldier isn't anywhere near the same as being a battle-hardened soldier. He was completely inexperienced in actual combat" asserts a realism that did not exist in the OT. The character trajectories of a farm boy, princess and smuggler in ANH are not encumbered by their lack of warfare experience the way Finn is... and Finn is actually a former soldier, familiar with military strategy, weapons, and tactics. These traits aren't in TFA/TLJ. Instead, his backstory contributes to these films in an unconventional way, as that of a janitor. While Rey gets Force'd up to Kylo's level because of *reasons* Finn is stuck in neutral because of the dictates of fictional realism.
     
  20. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Well Rian clearly didn't give a crap about Hux's characterization in TFA in particular. Because there he was fanatical, but also competent. Pretty much all of his decisions made sense, he advocate taking the most efficient and direct way to solve a problem, and he only "fails" because other people screw up.

    Here, he's a Saturday morning cartoon villain who "toys" with his enemies for no real reason besides stupidity.
     
  21. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    And Phasma is hardly fearsome and isn't that great at combat.
     
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  22. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2015
    Yeah. You can tell by John's crooked hairline, that is not real hair...
     
  23. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Of course it exists in the OT, there is absolutely nothing in it that suggests otherwise.

    Did you somehow miss that there is this thing called the force?
    Of course Rey is exceptionally strong, that's because the force has made her so. You can't seriously compare someone who is supposed to be the match for a Skywalker to someone who is a common soldier. Han wasn't a match for Luke either. Finn was an inexperienced trooper who didn't even have the desire to fight the FO, and he still ended up being considered a hero for what he did on the mission to Starkiller base, and he took out his former commander, who is the leader of all stormtroopers. How in the world is that supposed to be "stuck in neutral" or not getting forward?

    Finn went from someone who was insecure in his own abilities (see him talking to himself while freeing Poe, and when shooting TIEs with the Falcon) and who just wanted to get away from everything, to developing a dedication to his friend Rey to the point that he would do everything to help rescue her, and from there on turns into someone who proudly proclaims himself to be "rebel scum" and takes on his former superior. That's a ton of character development.

    It's funny how some people complain about Finn not doing more, while pretending that other non force-users got something much better than he did. That couldn't be further from the truth. Han never fought any particular Imperial leader, unless you count getting absolutely owned by Vader. His main achievement consists of shooting a few stormtroopers on Endor and tricking the Empire into opening the bunker. Beyond that he mostly made things up on the fly. He was also used to add humour at his own cost, e.g. trying to open the bunker door only to shut an additional door, or having the toolbox fall on him while working on the Falcon. He worked out great because of his personality and because he always found a way to somehow get away with things, not because he took down one enemy after another. Heck, the one time he took down a "famous" villain himself, it was purely by accident.

    Leia has even less in that regard. She mostly stood out due to her feistyness and wit, and her political leadership, not because she took down any big villains. Beyond occasionally shooting at some stormtroopers, she didn't really have many fights at all. Her encounters with important Imperials mostly came down to battle of wits or minds, not any combat.
     
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  24. Ryanpaulstewart

    Ryanpaulstewart Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2016
    "Being a well-trained soldier isn't anywhere near the same as being a battle-hardened soldier. He was completely inexperienced in actual combat"

    The above is your argument. Please support your argument. Luke, Leia, and Han were not hindered by their varied assortment of backgrounds. They could be effective in combat within the span of ANH. Finn didn't have to be "inexperienced" or that his inexperience mattered to the degree that it did. That was the choice of the creative team that wrote him and made it a thing in the story.

    This is SW, realism is relative. No one would've batted an eye if Finn were effective in combat.
     
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  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Just realized that Finn is the ST's version of C-3PO. Kidding, but only sorta.
     
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