ST John Boyega (Finn) in Episode IX

Also, can I just clarify that if John really wasn't meant to be the male lead and no one ever told him that, then yes, he was kinda cheated and deserved better? Same with his fans. I mean, those are legitimate grounds to be kinda upset, even if it did help jumpstart your career. It just leaves a really bad taste in your mouth for someone to do that.

 

Rian's script included an opening with Finn in action. There were rumors that he was asked to change it (to Poe) and that's why filming process was delayed. And RJ mentioned in the documentary that at first the movie had another beginning. I've never heard that Rian asked to put Finn in coma. It makes no sense.

Do writing and filmmaking work like this? Director need to satisfy actors? What if Gleeson want Hux to become a hero or John want Finn to become badass villain?

Seriously, SW fandom is the only fandom I know that think actors somehow need to be included in storytelling process. Yeah, there are changes during filming because it's good to let some things go natural. But directions for the characters?

Story for IX is ready, script is almost finished, main directions won't be changed because of fans\actors\composers.

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I really don't know what are you arguing about here. Leads, protags, heroes - ST has 325 characters and unusual structure because of legacy characters. It doesn't matter who is protag if he/she gets boring and unoriginal story. Ford wasn't main man lead and look at his story and popularity.

 

I am continually amazed at people who claim Finn never was the male lead despite all evidence to the contrary.The above Quote spells it out plain as day...yet it's ignored or twisted to uphold the idea that Finn was always meant to be a sidekick...well here


From the TFA concept art...one of the first pieces we get is of our two leads....Kira and Sam. Kylo Ren began life as 'The Jedi Killer' and a way to separate the original trilogy characters. Later on he was made into the Solo's wayward child to tie him into the OT characters.

Finn even has deliberate parallels to Kylo Ren...which is why Kylo hates him so much in TFA.

I have to admit this desire to rewrite history and some double standards I've seen in the fandom concerning Finn are starting to work my last nerve. In the 'Daisy Ridley' thread, in response to a question about what Rey and Finn could do in Episode 9...I posited a theory where Kylo Ren and Rey have a 'Wizards Duel' with no lightsabers. Something almost out of 'Doctor Strange' with the pair arguing for their respective positions as they fight a battle that will be decided by their knowledge and mastery of the Force and not their skill/ability with a lightsaber.. The end result is Kylo stripped of his connection to the force...but Rey unconscious, the idea being that Rey 'let go' trusting in the Force, and achieving victory without killing Kylo Ren...since without his ability to manipulate the Force...Kylo is as good as dead even if he kills a vulnerable Rey. Enraged, Kylo goes to strike the killing blow...but is blocked by Rey's lightsaber, as held by Finn. Now...the battle is between Kylo and Finn and it's a fair match as neither side can use the force. Finn achieves victory...putting the final nail in Kylo's Coffin just as Rey comes around.

I had people complaining I'd turned Finn into the protagonist...simply because I arranged for a payoff to his duel with Kylo Ren in the first movie.

I mean Finn wins, because Rey literally achieves the moral, physical and force victory in a new and visually interesting way...but because I have Finn win a lightsaber duel...all that is suddenly stripped away from Rey? I mean people talk ALL the time about how her destiny is to save Kylo Ren and continue the Skywalker Legacy...yet I"M the one reducing her role because I dare to have her and Finn (Co-leads) achieve total victory by *gasp* working together?! and trusting one another?!!

Clearly I'm crazy.

 

Exactly. I just feel they’ve wasted so much potential on Finn. We’re now 2 movies in, with only 1 left, and I don’t think Finn has a single moment where people say “OK wow this characters impressive”.

Every other new main character (Rey Kylo Poe) get their moments to shine whether it’s winning a lightsaber duel, beating multiple opponents in a fight, being an amazing pilot, blowing up super bases, using the force in ways we haven’t seen before. And in addition to that they all get stuff that makes them stand out. Rey got the Skywalker lightsaber and the Falcon. Kylo got the first crossguard saber and the Skywalker bloodline. Poe got a custom black and orange x-wing and BB-8.

Finn on the other hand gets none of this. He had a cool backstory but they ruined it with the sanitation jokes. He wears basically standard resistance gear. No special weapon. Can’t fly. Rarely if ever gets to show his talent in combat. Loses his fights. I see so many people say “he doesn’t have to do those things, what makes Finn great is his courage to stand up for his friends and for what’s right even when he’s in over his head and wants to run”... but this is Star Wars we’re talking about. Literally EVERY CHARACTER in the saga has courage in one way or another. It’s pretty much required in order to survive. This is why Finn gets called useless compared to the others.

I’m not saying he needs to be invincible or anything even close to that, but it’d be nice to get some scenes that focus on him being able to handle himself instead of the ones where he’s running, getting punked and tased by everyone. They showed Rey beating up on Jakku thugs, they showed Rey/Kylo defeating Snoke’s guards. They showed Poe/Kylo and their skills as pilots. They could’ve let Finn shine against the stormtrooper at Maz’s castle, but they chose to make him lose. They could’ve let him shine when he fought Phasma, but they rushed through the fight in like a minute and Finn only gets the winning strike because Phasma was distracted.

In a franchise like Star Wars, I truly feel like being a good fighter, having unique things, and generally just getting to shine as a cool character is important. And Finn is really lacking in that department.

 

Finn is like a Toyota Corolla that you argue should be a Lexus GS instead. And everytime you do, there's someone that pops out of the wood works that tries to explain to you how the Corolla is just as good as the GS because it has a steering wheel, a cup holder, and an arm rest. It's always the most mundane things they use to make the argument that the Corolla is somehow special because it isn't special. Meanwhile everything else around you is a Jaguar, Lamborghini, Porsche, Benz, or BMW... but because, you know, the Corolla has a windshield and can drive in a straight line, it doesn't HAVE to be a luxury car. It's "good" enough the way it is.

 

I think the reason Finn didn’t die in this movie is because he’s still got a big part coming up in the next movie. He’s not first string in this trilogy, but he will have a shining hero moment in episode IX I’m sure of it.

 

Honestly, unless it's leading a massive stormtrooper uprising that specifically turns the tide of a battle, or helping Rey against Kylo and the Knights of Ren. I cannot think of anything that would make up for two movies of bs. The only reason I gave JJ so much slack for TFA was because I just assumed that Finn specifically failed so much to have major growth in TLJ, but Rian didn't care about him. I can only hope you're right, and that JJ and John can work something out.

 

WRONG. Skylar/Sam Solo was the Solo son meant to go evil in Lucas' vision for VIII. He was not meant to have already fallen before VII. Before he was Finn the Stormtrooper or Sam Solo, he was named Skylar Solo, which is an obvious homage to his Skywalker heritage. Skylar seemingly morphed into Kylo (Skywalker + Solo, which emphasizes the Solo heritage more) instead, which further points out how this character was once the good guy character next to the heroine in the concept art.

The Jedi Killer was Darth Talon, a female Twi'lek that looks like a scantily-clad Darth Maul ripoff. You couldn't confuse that concept art for Kylo Ren if you tried. She has her own concept art. Even Uber/Snoke was toyed with as a female character before they settled on male. Darth Talon would have been killed in the snowy forest (not just getting Kylo's face slashing), leaving an opening for the Solo male offspring to become the replacement Sith apprentice in the next film. Luke had a larger training/mentor role in George Lucas' VII, so that also got moved to VIII.

You might notice that concept art is that of an obvious Harrison Ford-looking offspring, complete with the Han Solo blaster pose. Jacen Solo ripoff alert. Note that George Lucas wanted the Solo kids to be both way younger than they ended up being, as Disney really wanted to avoid any whiff of Prequel comparisons, as well as the fact that old Harrison and Carrie's fictitious kid would make more sense if he were nearing 30 (so he was born closer to RotJ), not a teenager like that concept art. The kiddie factor was done away with by Disney as much as possible. Another reason they wanted Adam Driver so bad.

Thank you for proving my point that the concept art of the character that became partly Finn (minus the Solo heritage, Force skills or anything of the character trajectory after the snow fight) was once half of the Ben Solo role.

Not the same thing as what Finn became. He only took HALF of the role meant for what became Ben Solo in VII. Harrison Ford then renamed the character after his own eldest son (not new for Ben and Willard Ford, who already had Ben Kenobi and General Willard named for them). Ben Solo still was named Skylar/Sam until Harrison changed it. J.J. has explained this.

Note that also-homely-looking white actor Jesse Plemons was up for the role of Finn. Except with him, we'd have even more speculation he was secretly a Skywalker, too. That already was rife during the casting rumor leaks. Had that happened, we wouldn't have the race nightmare where it's demanded that this character get the white girl heroine and be the male lead instead of the SkySolo offspring. J.J. fought for John Boyega. Note that J.J. already had his own problem casting situation with Benedict replacing Ricardo, so he went out of his way to add diversity. It obviously had its own backfiring. Would you be demanding Plemons get the girl so ferociously if treated the exact same way as a decoy sidekick marketed as the lead with a lightsaber? I think not.

 

Ok I'm sorry this last part is hilarious. You're seriously asking "would you be rooting for an interracial romance if both potential romances included strictly white people? Would you be this mad if literally one white character was treated poorly?" I'm ******* dying rn

Lemme sum it up for you real nice and simple. JJ fought for John to be cast. He called John the new star of star wars. John was called the leading man or male protagonist or co-protagonist on and on and on, as well as put on promo all over the place both as a lead and alongside daisy when it came to interviews and stuff. Now Finn fans want to see what they were promised after constantly being told to calm down and just wait. So now what?

Oh, And here we go again with suggesting that Finn fans are the ones in the wrong and the ones being unreasonable. Nothing new here. Are you done yet? I feel like you'd be much happier in a different thread

 

No...thank you for proving mine. The TFA art book talks about how Sam became Finn....about how the character (Even as a former Storm Trooper) was supposed to undergo a ritual and be reborn as a hero. We see that from the get go....Kira and Sam are our heroes....and you work hard to twist that into proof that Finn was only ever meant to be a side kick....when even Rian Johnson called him a lead.

RJ shifted tried to shift things to a more ensemble route...which was acknowledged by Daisy Ridley in an interview. (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/02/15/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-rey-role/)

We can debate the skill at which RJ pulled off his ensemble...but if even Daisy is saying Rey's not the center...well that is telling about RJ's story.

 

I find it sad you can almost place Poe (who was a cardboard charachter in TFA), ahead of Finn in terms of place in the story. Luke handed the baton of to Rey, and Leia did the same with Poe. Finn is currently in between with no clear cut direction going forward (he's not confronting Kylo, no way in hell), and his physical nemesis is death (Phasma). They'll probably promote him to general in the next movie, but that doesn't mean much if your organisation consists of 20 people.

Some guy on redddit perfectly described my feelings about Rian Johnson's story decision in regards to Finn:
"Honestly. It's like Finn was set up in the first movie as a main character and fan favourite, but Rian Johnson had no idea what to do with him, and no real intention in actually using him, so made up some stupid mission to a CG casino planet.

Seriously, not only does the side mission takes a side mission to become Green Peace, but the original side mission itself was pointless and a failure. It had no bearing on the missions of any other characters in the movie, they didn't even find the guy they wanted to, their plan failed, and them failing didn't even have any bearing either.

Finn's unnecessary side plot though required an unnecessary sidekick, whose unnecessary sacrifice had no emotional impact to the viewers and was strategical unnecessary in the context of the scene."

 

RJ had the idea of challenging Finn's motivation for his actions, and giving him a Bondish style storyline....but clearly what he presented didn't resonate with many audience members...heck it didn't even Resonate with Daisy who was left wondering where John was as she didn't want to be separated from him during filming. I won't say that RJ didn't know what to do with Finn....I would say his EXECUTION of his idea was lacking.

It probably all looked good on paper...Finn leads a mission, infiltrates Snoke personal flag ship, and though the mission goes awry he takes down Phasma, and affirms his commitment to the ideals of the Resistance. However in the shooting....well you saw.

 

Have you considered he simply isn't that good of an actor/doesn't have the experience to lead the film? I mean i for one can see cracks in his acting the moment something dramatic and serious is required from Finn.
Granted, i think both Daisy and John were kinda weak in the acting department in TFA, and understandably so, both are relatively new to something so complex. But Daisy actually took it in stride and blew everybody away with her portrayal of Rey and her emotional struggle while John was not so convincing.
Im sure JJ wasn't being misleading in wanting something important for Finn and John...but it simply didn't pan out. Maybe in IX he will take on that ST rebellion plotline and do something with it and maybe JJ can get a better performance out of John.

 

....clearly we don't agree cause I had not issues with John's acting throughout TFA or TLJ. In fact one of my favorite moments form TFA with Finn is when he looks Maz right in the eyes and says 'You don't know me.' Honestly I want to see more of that....oh...and John is a stage actor so here are his reviews for Woyzeck...which he did AFTER TFA

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2...yega-jack-thorne-georg-buchner-old-vic-london

Let me repeat that since it's worth noting...as a student John Boyega player Othello....let that sink in before you try to claim he's not a good actor.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...ter-star-wars-the-force-awakens-a7753811.html

https://www.standard.co.uk/go/londo...-muscular-committed-performance-a3681021.html

https://www.thestage.co.uk/reviews/2017/woyzeck-starring-john-boyega-review-old-vic-boyega-shines/

Here's a thought...perhaps the problem isn't John...but a script that dosen't make full use of his abilities.

 

I thought your previous post had some merit. Yes - in a manner of speaking, Finn had been used as a misdirect twice (first as a potential Jedi in TFA marketing, and second as the male lead of TLJ), which lines up nicely with much of the discontent with Finn's role in the ST. We can debate the degree to which this bait-and-switch was intentional/incidental, but the execution of TLJ seconded Finn (and Luke) to Kylo. Kylo/Ben is 100% the male lead of the A-storyline.

Please dial back your tone. It's needlessly antagonistic. Also the bolded parts of your post is a hodgepodge of unclear race-baiting. This is the JB thread - not sure why Rey's race is relevant, or JJ's diversity controversy with the Star Trek franchise. Most who post in this thread like Finn's character and would like to see the character have a substantive contribution to the ST. Thus far, the ST has gone out of its way to undermine Finn's ability to do anything other than be an affable, funny character caught in a rapidly deteriorating situation. If Finn had cleanly beaten Phasma in TLJ and TR-8R in TFA (two wins no one would've batted an eye at), our relationship to the Finn character and LF's story choices would be totally different.

You are in the minority. Both Daisy and John's performances in TFA were universally praised by critics and fans.

 

@Adept
Oh im sure hes a good actor, he just doesn't show it in these movies, and i think ultimately is all that matters. Also the script isn't supposed to be perfect and pristine for the actor, he needs to actively work with the director on his delivery and reach a good take. Look at Driver's lines in the documentary, some are wooden and different in tone than what we ultimately got.

The deleted scene with Phasma had a very dramatic conversation between them and his delivery was really bad imo.
If Rian "had it in" for John he wouldn't have written the second biggest character arc for him in the movie to be honest.

 

Woyzeck is an unfinished play so John would've had to work closely with the Director to bring his vision of said play to life...which he apparently did...

Of my issues with that Scene John's delivery wasn't one of them. The line 'Squeal like a whoop hog' on the other hand....

I'm not saying Rian had it in for John. I AM saying that despite RJ's good intentions what he planned didn't work for many audience members. John can only work with what he's given and if RJ...in all his well meaning direction/writing went down the wrong path (and it happens) Then John can act his heart out...dosen't mean it'll save what's there.

 

No Ben Solo never was Skylar, he was "Jedi Killer". Pablo Hidalgo already said Finn always was Skylar, who in a point was a Solo kid. Poe Dameron almost was a jedi. Pablo said Ben Solo never has a name before Ford gave the idea of "Ben"
("Jedi Killer" who became "Ben Solo/Kylo Ren")

 

I'm sorry, but, I really can't take someone trying to accuse JB of being a bad actor very seriously.

 

Let’s play a game: post anything like this ever again, and we’ll be having a fun discussion in the Unban Request forum.

 

RJ meant for all this to work in Finn's favor...but a directors best intentions don't always pan out. The Director of Valerian and the City of a 1000 planets is a BIG fan of that comic series...yet his attempt at a film....failed.

 

That's because Rey has scenes written in the script where she's allowed to have that deep emotional struggle. Kylo Ren as well.

Finn doesn't get any scenes like that. There's no emotional complexity involved with this character at all. I saw Imperial Dreams and Detroit, JB is amazing in both of those films. He received rave reviews for his stage play last year as well. There's simply not much for him to work with in the material written for his character.

 

Every now and then I read different forums to see if people's reactions to Finn's treatment is the same as it is here: https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-...th-finn-and-he-wants-finn-rey-together.30673/

Overall, it's not too different.

It is on Facebook though, where the things you're likely to hear are that he's a clown, he's the new Jar Jar Binks, he should find someone of his own kind, and general death threats directed at Boyega.

 

Yeah general social media sites like Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube tend to have the most hostile and overtly racist commentary on John/Finn. People were trashing him in posts wishing John a happy birthday, ffs. Reddit has gotten pretty bad in this respect too ever since a certain fanbase took over the speculation subreddit.