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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST John Boyega (Finn) in Episode VII [v 2.0 Read Opening Post BEFORE Posting]

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Jedi Merkurian , Nov 22, 2015.

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  1. Shakez

    Shakez Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 22, 2014
    Simple explanation is they didn't think Finn's background through. I mean his charachter was switching between a pirate/smuggler/bounty hunter before Kasdan came in. Everyone agreed then him being a former stormtrooper would be cool and something original. But they probably didn't have the time (or didn't think it was important) to change his whole personality based on his stormtrooper background.

    It clearly show's in the movie that they where in such a hurry for Finn to defect the First-Order so he could meet Rey and start the adventure.
     
  2. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Or, an alternative take on it might be that it's a fast paced adventure film that keeps its motivations broad but understandable, and works very well as a result.
     
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  3. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Are the Marvel movies not intended for families? Why were those movies able to properly portray brainwashing in soldiers, but SW isn't able to do the same? We know why Finn wanted to leave the FO, but we have yet to find out how exactly he was able to withstand the conditioning. It was never explained at all.
     
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  4. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    The winter soldier was a film that was primarily about a brainwashed soldier. Of course it was going to zero in on that in more detail. The Force Awakens wasn't about a brainwashed soldier; it featured a defecting stormtrooper as one of the main characters, in a film that had other stuff going on, and the story wasn't about his actions while brainwashed. If you're going to criticise TFA for not being TWS, best to watch The Winter Soldier instead; I agree, it tells a great story about a brainwashed soldier. Finn's defection, for all intents and purposes, is because in the heat of battle he can't kill for The First Order and so flees. If that doesn't work for you, fine, but it's certainly not one of the strangest character motivations in Star Wars
     
  5. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    As I said, I understand Finn's reason for leaving, but myself and many others have no clue how he was able to withstand the conditioning and no other trooper is able to do the same. That's a HUGE part of understanding the stormtroopers, the First Order and Finn. Now if you believe that question is unimportant, that's your own opinion. Just know a lot of people would like some explanation to better understand what they are being sold by the filmmakers.
     
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  6. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    You're not shown any conditioning on screen, so you have no reason to question how it could be broken. In order to "not understand" what Finn has done, you already need to conjure up your own backstory; you're literally creating your own complexity and plot holes; I think it's a bogus argument to add context and backstory, but then not also do the working out for how it might have resolved itself.

    It literally doesn't require any more thought than; "very, very few, if any, people defect. This character is interesting because he has defected"
    They could have done well, but I simply don't believe that anyone was scratching their head when the film itself used visuals to show us that he simply wasn't cut out for slaughter. A TV series can get into more character detail, films need to be economical
     
  7. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    So I'm just supposed to assume the FO conditioning tactics are really crap and any soldier could break out of it at any given time? You know, I might actually believe that given the FO thought the Starkiller base was a good idea after two previous death stars ended in failure for the Empire. Their Starkilller base also has weak spots that could be easily targeted with explosives. :rolleyes:

    The thing is no other soldier is able to willingly withstand the conditioning, but Finn is. The Before the Awakening novel even states that Finn is immune to the conditioning and it NEVER worked on him EVER. How is that possible? What makes Finn so special?
     
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  8. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Well no, you're supposed to assume that it's very rare that stormtroopers break conditioning, and therefore immediately root for the guy who isn't prepared to kill despite having been trained to do so. That's literally what the film asks you to do. It's a simple bit of morality, and sure; in a film aimed at *only* adults, that explores the psychology of conditioning, you'd expect more. But this film isn't only for adults.

    A New Hope, by the same token, should feature a lot of time given over to how the destruction of an entire planet would affect Leia's psychology. It doesn't. Because that's not what the film is about. Films that work on such a big scale *have* to sketch out details, especially when the challenge is to make a film set during a galactic war, that is accessible to kids.

    The question "what makes Finn so special" is the wrong question; it's like watching a film about a lottery winner and being like "the odds of winning the lottery are tiny! This film is ridiculous!"; these films are *about* the special people.
     
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  9. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 7, 2016
    ... Or Finn is special. And by being special, he broke his conditioning and became a major player in the GFFA's most current and building crisis. What nuances of psychological stamina allowed him success when others are unable to make this breakthrough, could actually be rather unimportant, since he is what he is and he did break conditioning. The trigger event is shown and he reacted unlike the other stormtroopers. He is special. All our protagonists are special.
     
  10. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    You keep bringing up kids, when I gave you the Marvel movies which were successfully able to tell that story of brainwashed soldiers and their conditioning.

    For you to dismiss Finn being immune to the conditioning is odd. There has to be some sort of explanation there. You just can't expect audiences to just "accept" it because the writer doesn't want to delve deeper into the subject. What the hell is the point then? You're describing an incredibly simplistic style of storytelling.
     
  11. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    I replied to your point by saying that the marvel film was *about* a brainwashed soldier. With the brainwashed soldier bit being central to the plot, which was about a good guy who had turned bad, and Rogers' attempts to save the day/his friend. Star Wars was not about a brainwashed soldier; it was about a deserting stormtrooper. The film makes sense on its own terms. But I'm just repeating myself now. It doesn't work for you. That's a shame. Maybe the next one will work for you?
     
  12. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Then why are you bringing up kids?

    SW/Marvel - same demographic.
     
  13. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Because Star Wars does have a wider demographic than Marvel films, and does cater for a younger demographic. An eight year old can watch most Star Wars films (ROTS the exception) and broadly understand it. Winter Soldier is more for your 11 and up.

    And, again, it's not a film about brainwashing; if it was, they could spent the requisite amount of time making it work for all ages.
     
  14. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Rogue One says hello. Like I said, they share the same demographic.

    Finn is a character who has apparently never been successfully brainwashed, but all his peers have. I need a better explanation than just saying Finn has a good heart. That style of writing is beyond amateur. These movies aren't being dumb downed for the kiddies, if they were, we wouldn't have seen blood or death in TFA.
     
  15. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    You can say they share the same demographic; they don't. Marvel films are designed to appeal to a slightly older "starting" demographic than Star Wars films. That's a fact. It's also a fact that Star Wars isn't about a brainwashed soldier, but a defecting one. But it seems that you're simply convinced that the film is wrong, so I'm done.
     
  16. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Is it a fact? Where is your source? Can you prove it?

    Why was ROTS darker than Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man? Why is Rogue One being described as a darker take?
     
  17. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Hey, I'm done. We can agree to disagree. You've got your opinion, I'm happy with mine.
     
  18. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Finn was my favorite character in TFA, but I agree that his personality (and lack of skill) didn't mesh well with his background. The film just doesn't seem to want to explain stuff that could help some characters seem more believable. Maybe it's a timing issue, stuff to be explored in a future story, who knows.

    And if some people would just rather "go with it" and don't need a bunch of explanation, fine. It may not be necessary to understand the why or how with Finn, but as it is, I think it's understandable that some people would find his character unconvincing and want some answers.
     
  19. Nyxseris

    Nyxseris Jedi Knight

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    Feb 12, 2016
    I can understand why some people wish that there was more explanation of Finn's character. I want to know more about why and how he is the way he is but I don't take issue with TFA for not giving us that. The film was great but it was an extremely fast paced introduction to a whole bunch of new characters set over the course of what, a couple of days? There's got to be more to this character, there just wasn't time to show us.

    The fact is there are at least two more films to come and Finn is intriguing and likable enough for me to really want to know more about him. I'm expectantly hopeful that there's a lot more depth to come.
     
  20. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    sw characters don't need much explanation. it's sw. in the ot most characters were never even named in the films! the emperor wasn't named!

    i think people forget what sw even is.
     
  21. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    ^SW is different things to different people.

    I don't think there were many important characters that didn't have names besides the Emperor, but that's a pretty different detail than a main character's backstory.
     
  22. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    ok who is han solo before we meet him in anh?
     
  23. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    Also, fleshing out backstory is not the equivalent of character development. Why these characters are the way they are at the START of the story is far less important than who they are already, and how they develop over the course of the film (s). That's character development. Knowing who Finn, Rey, Poe and Kylo were before TFA, and how they came to be the way they are in TFA, is ultimately superfluous (though it may illuminate Rey's character, which seems to have a past mystery behind it). After all, we learn little or nothing about how Han and Leia came to be the way they are in ANH. And only a little about Luke's home life (and not much more than we learn about Rey). In short, the characters of TFA are drawn rather similarly to how they're drawn...in other Star Wars movies.
     
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  24. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    ^I don't know about all that; I would think the backgrounds of the TFA leads are part of who they are now and how believable they are as characters. And I don't think Han, Luke, and Leia had backstories that can be seen as contrasting so much with their personality, like Finn's does.
     
  25. Brennan Marshall

    Brennan Marshall Jedi Knight

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    May 22, 2015
    A great description of Finn's Character.

    The film can afford to have John Boyega being forced by the script to do a little too much comic relief and play the frady cat role too long. He’s not the central character. He’s not even the second most important character in this film in terms of holding it together (it’s Ford).

    Once Boyega’s character Finn settled down, I started liking him more. For a while there I was on the verge of making comparisons to Jar Jar in how annoying Finn was. I have a low tolerance for characters who are written badly and, for too much of the film, Finn was written badly. It was never really convincingly established for me why Finn felt so obligated to Rey. Because she looked at him a certain way? Is that really enough? That lack of authenticity undermined scenes like Finn running after Rey when Kylo Ren carried her off. It rang hollow. None of this is Boyega’s fault. You play the hand you’re dealt and the script dealt him a bad one. I’m hoping the next film plays Finn a little more seriously. I want more of the Finn who confronted Kylo Ren and less of the Finn who was afraid of his own
    shadow
     
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