ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

@Thrawn082 Dude. I keep telling you. They knew by that point the Falcon was in Crait. So they knew someone came in time. All they had to do was reconnoiter and come up with another plan. Which is what Poe was trying to do since continuing in on the skimmers was suicide.

 

The Falcon changes nothing. It's one ship that does nothing t change their situation. It cannot take out all of the AT-AT's (heck it's already contrived that it avoided all of the TIE's that were there). It cannot get to them because there's no other way out of the base besides the front door (and we know that because they DID check and confirmed as much), which they cannot get out of nor can the Falcon land there, and there's ZERO sign that anyone else is coming, or that they could get there in time (again the door was about to be blown up in moments).

And again the film does a poor job of selling the idea that it was a "suicide mission." So that's sloppy as well.

You can keep telling me all you want, it still doesn't work and is poorly-done. I'm not changing my mind on that.

And it also still does not change the fact that, for the second film in a row, Finn was intentionally denied his hero moment by the writers. EVERY other character has gotten a clear one, but not him.

 

It was NEVER clear in the movie that Rose was romantically attracted to Finn. It only showed that she thought he was a hero and had great admiration for him. That's literally all we got in the movie.

Luke and Han clearly showed romantic interest in Leia in ANH so it wasn't jarring that Leia kissed Luke to make Han jealous.

 

Poe really thought the Falcon was going to buy them enough time to go back to the base, regroup, come up with another plan while about 10 walkers stood outside their door?

 

People seem to think that Rose means it's better to save one thing you love than try to kill something you hate. Even if it might allow things you hate to hurt more things that you love.

Finn wasn't going to kill anything but himself. And he wasn't going to save anything either. The pre-blast was ripping his ship apart even before the main blast of the canon. It only took a collision from Rose's speeder to disintegrate it. The chances of Finn making a dent in the canon with a ship you can kick holes in were, just as Poe surmised at the beginning of the attack, extremely remote.

 

And to get them off planet. Which is eventually what happened.

All the Mining Base had to do was focus communications with the Falcon.

Hell, for all Poe knew, Luke Skywalker WAS on the Falcon.

@Thrawn082 As per Boyega, "Finn still has a lot of growing to do."

Which I agree, otherwise he'd be a static character and not a dynamic one.

 

Why the gif of Leia/Luke kiss? They know each other for 3 years since ANH and Leia was trying to make Han jealous.

 

There's a reason Finn looks so baffled in the moment Rose is kissing him. Very different from that Luke/Leia kiss. Luke was surprised, but into it, which leads to a lot of incest jokes/memes. Finn wasn't surprised but into it. He was just surprised.

 

@Thrawn082

So long as this holds when criticizing the film as well I have no issue with that. I rarely fall back on interviews or commentary because I don't think it's necessary. There's enough in the film that many can grasp without anything he said afterward. So, I'm with you. let's leave what he said out of it entirely and it's there where everything I said is supported. I mention the zapper quote only because someone earlier was citing commentary.

You're constructing a sarcastic strawman around a simplified idea that's easier for you to attack here. It's not necessary. There are MULTIPLE themes explored in their arcs. There's not just one thing and that's it.

As for trusting in chain of command and your team or being a total wild card who always does what they want when they want... the former is part of teamwork in general and the latter isn't. I disagree with you that Holdo is presented as being 100% correct and beyond criticism in her approach simply because her intentions were good and because Leia had also felt that Poe needed to learn more about flight in addition to fight. Leia had no idea how Holdo communicated at all while she was unconscious so she's merely commenting on the importance of flight and fight in leading a military.

Holdo receives some criticism for her actions from fans, and from all of the fellow mutineers who felt she should be relieved of her duty because she could have taken a different leadership approach and didn't. We know that she tried to reach out to Poe on his own from what C3PO tells us. It's possible she meant to try a different tactic with Poe then and there in private, away from other ears but because she didn't we can only go by her choices and as I've already said... I think Johnson likes creating situations where there's blame to go around that escalates as opposites react to what they're experiencing from others and escalate things. You see it all over TLJ by design.

The FO won't be taken down by just everyone doing whatever they want and just as Luke needed to realize that some poor choices by some Jedi don't reflect on the religion itself, Finn had to realize that some poor orders by a military that make him non-trusting of chain of command of all kinds.. don't reflect on the basic premise of chain of command and the trust of teammates that's required when truly being part of something and joining it.

As for chain of command issues becoming a bigger part of Star Wars? I agree... it's a newer development and it's about damn time that a saga focused on war dealt with them more.

Buying time and trying to survive does work because that's exactly what they've been trying to do the whole time. The entire film they're counting on someone to answer the call to help them. And they see the Falcon and are down to a only a small number of people so it makes even more sense that they're thinking about ways to survive than attack.

They had been waiting for someone to come help the whole time. It's why they went to get Luke in the first place. It's why they're trying to send a distress signal. It absolutely works because that's literally the primary goal they've had the entire time. They didn't know that these things wouldn't work out the way they had hoped but that's the hope they're clinging onto and that's what's driving them and when they see the Falcon they're thrilled because that's the first sign that some help is coming.

If you want to argue about what you think is as much a part of Star Wars as anything (individuality) then Deus Ex is right there alongside it. The Jedi / clones on Geonosis. Han and the Falcon for Luke's big shot. Heck, if one really wanted to... they could probably argue the change of heart of Vader himself given what the hero was facing but I wouldn't since it was clearly setup that Luke had wanted him to turn. Which is why I'd also argue that it was equally setup that the Resistance was waiting for help and eventually got it in the form of Luke and Rey.

You don't think Poe, as an emerging leader, could stand to value life more and consider flight more in addition to fight? You don't think Finn was still of more of an independent mindset? Ever heard "There's no "I" in team?" Right at the end he even says, "I" won't let them win. So, even when he thinks he's chosen a side he's still not fully on board with what it means to be part of a team. You don't have to agree with Rose or Holdo's methods, and I suspect Johnson doesn't expect you to, but the lessons will help these two emerging leaders heading into IX.

That's not true. Poe's heroic sacrifice was presented as equally independent of what might have been best for his team in that moment. Luke's heroic sacrifice, which is similar to Batman in the Dark Knight rises, of taking all of the criticism and pain from being in exile and keeping the Jedi/Superheroes away from the GFFA/Gotham so that something better than either can rise is presented as misguided and a mistake that Luke later realizes. Rey's heroic sacrifice of bravely stepping right into the lion's den based on her vision, after she's handed out the saber one last time, in order to bring a hero back that she's convinced will turn if she goes to him and faces Snoke with him fails in that he doesn't turn and she left Luke without a ship for his change of heart. Poe's belief that Rose/Finn would be able to deliver and disable the tracker failed. Holdo's belief that the shuttles would go unnoticed failed. THEY ALL FAILED IN TLJ FOR A TIME.

So, you prefer that in every dynamic where two people are disagreeing on how to view something that there be a very clear line between who's right and who's wrong at all times in such a way that there's nothing to talk about at all regarding the topic that's explored since people can only be 100% right or 100% wrong? So, that it's so on the nose and forced that even children under the age of 10 understand all that there is to understand? I suppose that's my equivalent of your sarcastic strawman to me but I'll at least grant this. I can appreciate that on some level if you do feel that way. It works for the animated shows and many of the novels and Star Wars is for young people but since I'm no longer young... I respectfully disagree and prefer the additional maturity and nuance that Johnson revels in which is generally found more so on the festival circuit and less in big tent blockbusters.

 

I'd say if you look arbitrary Rose's reaction, when Finn does his speech

Boyega in 2016: "Finn is a stormtrooper, so he doesn't really know what's going on. So the romance thing is going to be interesting in the next installment."

I'd say that goes for any potential Finn romance.

 

In this case, I don't think that FinnRose kiss is an example of Finn being clueless. He had no reason to think she was attracted to him. I certainly didn't think that so I don't know why he would think that.

 

to be fair, these kisses tend to happen in dire situations:

 

@Ender_and_Bean @Thrawn082 I'd say that Leia herself spells out the lesson that's distinguished from following blindly following orders, in that she needed Poe to stop thinking like a "hero" and start thinking like a leader. That's Poe's whole arc in TLJ right there. And it applied to Finn in the end as well.

I don't think Leia is wrong. But if it challenges your entire view of Star Wars, so be it.

I think Finn not killing civilians in TFA, and Poe's storyline in TLJ shows there's a big difference.

 

I couldn't reply to the question of why I shared the Leia/Luke kiss in reaction to Finn/Rose until others posted to avoid double-stacking so now I will. It was in reaction largely to this comment:

The argument has been that it's basically to have fans guessing who Finn will potentially end up with in the end of IX if he ends up with either and my point was that the OT basically left fans guessing who Leia would choose through 1.25 films before it became clear she chose Han. The argument has also been that Rose and Finn clearly have less chemistry and my argument was that I felt it was pretty clear that Luke and Leia did as well but that didn't stop them from introducing that possibility as a potential complication.

 

It is, after all, a rather chaste kiss before dying. Lets not forget that.

 

I can leave in or leave out the kiss, for me personally.

But I find it hilarious seeing people treat it as a violation of Finn. Like it's on the same plane of #metoo, because of consent issues.

I mean, common sense, people.

 

I mean is it that before starting to kiss someone on a first date you need to stop and say "I feel like kissing, do you consent?" I feel like this would make it really awkward.

 

Definitely don't think it's a "violation," that's extreme. But we could have done without it, IMO. I think just establishing a dynamic between them that could be interpreted as romantic would have been a smarter move if their goal was to leave fans guessing.

The random last-minute kiss just felt awkward.

 

It's a pretty awkward scene, to be sure. I don't think you'll find many who disagree with that.

Indeed, I'm pretty sure Rian Johnson intended for it to be that way.

 

I honestly wonder if he did sometimes. In earlier versions of the script they had a much more fleshed-out, quasi romantic relationship, but for some reason that was cut out and all we're left with is the sudden kiss.

The mind boggles.

 

An awkward kiss in the middle of an intense battle sequence. That's not a good combo.

I HIGHLY doubt Rian meant for the scene to be awkward.

 

Highly doubt it all you want. I'm personally highly certain that Rian was going for awkward nerdiness in that scene.

 

"Purposely absent" or cut? Supposedly, a lot of material was, especially concerning those two characters. Not that that changes the film we actually saw, but the scenario that there was originally something between them which was sacrificed to hasty cutting makes more sense to me than Johnson honestly thinking it was a good idea for the kiss to come out of nowhere. (Either way, though, it shows Finn, Rose and their subplot weren't exactly high priority.)

 

By all accounts, everybody's roles seem to have been reduced or deprioritised in TLJ. Except Luke's, which still isn't big enough.

 

I'm not convinced that Finn's sacrifice wouldn't have worked, I think his guns melting away was meant to signify that, if he was to commit to crippling the cannon, he would have to fly into it; ending his life. If you watch closely he wasn't flying directly down the beam's path until his turret was destroyed.

IMO Rose saving him shows that they aren't so different, where Finn was willing to let the First Order destroy the Resistance to protect one person at the beginning, she was willing to do the same for someone she cared for at the end. If TLJ is about everyone's failures and mistakes, this one was hers.