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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Momotaros, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Except I don't buy any of it. Poe WAS thinking like a leader, he was the only one willing to even try and make tough decisions. Again Rian's execution doesn't work with what he's trying to convey.

    Also it was just a bad idea in-general to pick the EIGHTH movie in a saga and the middle of a trilogy to try and start "deconstructing" things (also the previous films already deconstructed SW, so again nothing new here in that regard). It's out of place. And it further convinces me that Rian REALLY would have preferred that this be a standalone film as opposed to part of a nine movie saga.
     
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  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Expending the entire bombing fleet was not his decision to make. It wasn't necessarily a tough decision either. He got carried away with his own exploits and the temptation to hit a juicy target and disobeyed orders in order simply to express his own bullishness.

    Saving your forces is potentially just as tough a decision as risking everything. The deciding factor is risk v reward. Poe was not in a position, spatially or authority wise, to make that decision.
     
  3. Han Drolo

    Han Drolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 9, 2014
    I feel like the only substantial thing Rian did with Finn in TLJ was turn his arc into one big clusterfudge. He essentially dismantled everything that was developed for him in TFA, which also left abit to be desired for the character, but as a starting point it wasn't too shabby, but TLJ seems to go out of it's way to blatantly dilute his importance to the overall plot. Not only did it seem like Rose was a more prominent voice in what was supposed to be his arc , but the agency that's been robbed from this character for two straight movies has me , like Thrawn, finding his entire story frustrating to watch. Finn can't do anything in this franchise without getting hand held or reprimanded and it's kinda bizzare considering how this franchise treats it's other heroes achievements or display of bravery.

    His arc could've benefited so much if things were a simple game of cat and mouse between he and Phasma up until their duel , also the deleted scene that extended their fight and his mind game with the other troops that painted her out to be a Traitor would've complimented that avenue nicely. Honestly don't even see the point of the Rose character.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  4. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    If he was going for nerdiness don't you think the scene would have had a beat of comic relief from either Finn or Rose?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  5. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    In what way do you think TLJ dismantles everything that was developed for him in TFA?

    Much of TLJ is about testing the characters to find out more about who they are. Rose's assertive personality and Resistance-focused mindset is the foil to DJ's laid back, "maybe" temptation of riches and total freedom that "Don't Join" represents. It's the classic angel and devil dynamic on Finn's shoulders as he decides the person he wants to be long-term. In TFA he was going to run but came back for Rey. That's where his arc picks up from after he wakes up. From there, separated from Rey, who was the one he was changing for previously, we see if he's really changed, what he's really made of, and who he really wants to be without Rey in the picture.

    In the end he realizes that "Don't Join" is part of the reason the FO is winning and that becoming like him only helps organizations like the FO win. He realizes he does want to Fight the FO and sees himself as Rebel Scum by the end but he still has issues to work through making the move from the chain of command lack of trust he had with the FO when his choice to disobey an order was just, and what's required to truly join a new movement that also has chain of command and orders and the requirement to trust in decision-making and hope that might not be immediately obvious. Rose helps him see that although the FO and Resistance share similarities on the surface they're in this conflict for very different reasons. The resistance will need some heroes like Finn to win and retreating and regrouping now and then will be as important as fighting what they hate.

    I liked aspects of the deleted scene as well but I actually think his fight with Phasma is pretty solid. Few, if any, non-Jedi get extended fight sequences the caliber of what Finn's had through 2 films now. We've seen him fight with a trooper. Pick up a saber and fight the grandson of Darth Vader. And in this movie have some Jedi-style side-scrolling combat action where he ultimately killed the leader of the child slave program that took him and got to deliver a nice line as she perished. I've said it before and I'll say it again but Han Solo never got that kind of hand-to-hand combat action and was seen as the secondary male lead to Luke throughout the OT. Han Solo versus Boba Fett, in comparison, makes Finn vs Phasma feel like Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
     
  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I could buy the nerdiness thing if RJ didn't totally inappropriately juxtapose that odd kiss over the explosion of the FO reaching the targets of their desired massacre. It looked like RJ was going for epic emotional impact to me.
     
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  7. City Councilman Binks

    City Councilman Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    May 7, 2014
    It seems you weren't paying attention at the beginning of Love Actually:

    In all honestly, i don't think this is novel, new or controversial (the kiss....and Love Actually)
     
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  8. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Um... what on earth makes you think that I think Love Actually is a profound statement on love in the universe, or that this quote has any relevance to this scene? I paid attention during that movie, and I concluded that it really says nothing and it's not for me. It doesn't give me feels. By the end of Love Actually, I feel a little sick based on a number of the stories in it. I don't consider it a feel-good movie, which is how it presents itself, so meh.

    More importantly, I don't really think this is responsive to what I said. All I said is I don't think RJ was going for a nerdy cutesy scene. Based on the shot, I think he was going for epic. That has nothing to do with love being all around us. It speaks to the intended emotional impact of the scene.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  9. City Councilman Binks

    City Councilman Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    May 7, 2014
    i'm sorry, i wasn't responding to the nerdy cutesy part of your statement. More to the point, perhaps i should've pointed that out, it was to the part "kiss over the explosion of the FO reaching the targets of their desired massacre"

    More specially, I don't think that is an odd juxtaposition. I think it is not only a familiar movie trope, but something very common to the human condition. Regardless of how I felt about that kiss, I don't think that Rose kissing Finn in the midst of a losing battle is all that strange. I used some images yesterday of other instances where it happens in Star Wars, but i guess the one where Anakin and Padme kiss when being led to the massacre is the most appropriate considering the circumstances. I mean, that entire movie revolved around the Separatist wanting to kill Padme, and at last they have her and she is being led to be devoured by space animals. The kiss between Anakin and Padme (even after Padme states she isn't afraid to die) was actually one of the best done between the pair and not out of place.
     
  10. Lost_Hope

    Lost_Hope Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 15, 2018
    I thought Finn looked surprised because he has never been kissed before. He even moves his lips immediately after this - like he was trying to return it or trying to understand what she did. So I agree about awkward nerdiness in this scene.
     
  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Kissing when two people believe they are about to die is definitely not strange. Rose was giddy though, as though the imminent massacre of the Resistance was not virtually guaranteed, and she certainly wasn't kissing him because she believed they were about to die given her dialogue. She was thrilled to have saved him and seemed to believe that her action had purpose so she kissed him, exactly as the explosion of the doors shines behind her. I don't think that context is at all comparable to Anakin/Padme kissing before they're executed. I think it's an emotional mess of a scene.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It should be noted that Poe is skeptical about the assault right from the start. Finn sways the room with his belief that someone who believes in Leia will come. And that they must try to buy time for that to happen. Poe looks circumspect but agreed in principle so leads them in the attempt to prove Finn right.

    When they begin the attack, Poe declares that he doesn't like the odds or the chances of their equipment even holding up and advises caution.

    We also learn that the FO are not slowing their advance for the sake to deal with this distraction. When Poe realises this, he calls back the survivors since they are not going to achieve their stated objective and any further losses will be for nothing.
     
  13. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    You do realize if you look at A New Hope in a bubble, then Empire Strikes Back is a total deconstruction of ANH.

    The heroes don't outrun the bad guys. One good guy is captured in the end. The hero doesn't defeat the villain. Instead, he doesn't rescue his friends, he loses the fight, he loses his hand and finds out the villain is his "dead" father.

    ESB invented the notion that you can use the second act (2nd film) in a stand alone trilogy to deconstruct the first film, before you use the third film the wrap it up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  14. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    I think he was making what would in a more traditional blockbuster be epic, a little nerdier. So the backdrop and situation were intentional contrasts to the awkward intimacy they were sharing. Like or dislike Rian, I think he was very deliberate about what he wanted, and not so tone deaf as to not read this scene as an uncomfortable mix of awkward and epic. Rian was, at many points during the film, deliberately pressing discomfort buttons. He was only sometimes successful in making these meaningful, IMO, but I think it’s off-base to surmise that these were unintentional beats.
     
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  15. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Unfortunately, I believe the line "I saved you........dummy" is the beat of comic relief in the scene.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  16. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    And yet a small minority of fans and critics praised the scene so whatever he intended failed miserably.

    No one praised Finn/Rose dynamic like people praised Finn's dynamic with Poe and Rey in TFA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  17. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Key words...."unfortunately"
     
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  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    I didn't say anything about the success of the scene. Just that the way it played out was intentional. You thought it wasn't intentional, and I disagreed.

    Personally, I don't care for the scene either. But that wasn't the subject of our conversation.
     
  19. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    From that standpoint then why didn't TLJ do the same with TFA? Instead it undermined what very little was there in the first place.
     
  20. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    That's literally what a deconstruction is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  21. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    I’m more curious to know what you felt was not continued over from what we knew at the very end of TFA from what’s on screen in TFA.
     
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  22. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Again if you're only defense is "well the older film did it, so it's totally ok to do it now," then that's not much of a defense imo. 2017 is not 1980, times have changed and the franchise has a lot more backstory now. I don't care what ESB did, it doesn't matter in regards to this.

    Also you CANNOT look at ANH in a bubble because it clearly isn't. Lucas slammed the door on that when he added "Episode IV" to the title, it's part of an ongoing narrative and must be judged accordingly. That ship sailed a LONG time ago.

    And ESB isn't fundamentally a deconstruction. I don't believe for a second that Lucas and Kershner were as concerned with that as Rian is here, not even close. Also Luke and co actually got to accomplish something in ANH before the crap hit the fan in ESB. Finn did not, so that's a big difference right there.

    Also I'm tired of modern day writers feeling like the ONLY worthwhile thing to do with stories is to "deconstruct" them. It's boring and shows an utter lack of creativity at this point (especially since the PT already deconstructed a lot of SW tropes and did it better imo).
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  23. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    I'm glad modern day writers feel the need to do it.

    Otherwise the 8th (or 9th) film in a franchise would look stale like other longrunning franchises like Friday the 13th series. Where Jason wakes up, kills promiscuous teens at camp Crystal Lake for the millionth time until he's defeated yet again for the sequel. Wash, rinse, repeat. Ad naseum.
     
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  24. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    As opposed to "lets deconstruct everything and show why your hero's aren't actually all that great in the end." rinse, repeat, ad nasuem. This is NO different that that, it's merely in a different context, and it's just as boring and cliché.
     
  25. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    And yet, Finn won his duel in TLJ, while Luke lost his in ESB.
     
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