ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

Disagree.

No one has to stick around just because a friend chooses to.

 

Also the guy who stopped a blaster bolt midair without apparently even trying, considering he continued to hold it there while in casual conversation. Also the guy who can physically freeze people with a gesture. Also the guy who tricked Snoke so convincingly that he killed him. Also the guy who took on five Praetorians. Also the guy who survived a gut shot from a freaking grenade launcher and stayed mobile.

But yes, because an extremely injured, emotionally distraught, and distracted man got beaten, he doesn't have incredible raw strength.

On a more serious note, I would remind that "raw strength" and "skill" are two very different things. Anakin in TPM had raw strength, but he didn't have the skill to use it.

 

This was exactly my point in one of my previous posts. He's not even treated as a valued member of the team.

Umm, no he doesn't. He has a mind of his own and his own moral code. That's why he rescued Poe, got BB8 back to the Resistance, gave them valuable intel on Starkiller and then risked his life to help them blow it up. Can we stop with the narrative that Finn having his own personal goals and wants is somehow wrong? Because that's not true.

 

Um.....no.

As Poe said, "You need a pilot."

He lied to Rey since it was more convenient for him and asked BB-8 to cover for him so he could continue on with them to get far away from the FO.
He risked his life to save Rey, yes.

But as Han yelled at him, there were bigger issues at hand, like Starkiller also.

Don't pretend TFA painted Finn with a high moral ground.

Finn had to be nudged to being heroic, and sometimes when it was convenient for him. But he's come a long way now.

 

Then they're not a very good friend, especially if they're leaving their friend to die. The most that he could have done was tell Poe and BB-8 that he was leaving.

No one is saying that. Finn having his own goals and motivations makes him a very strong character, but that doesn't automatically make him a good guy.

THIS. This is literally the point of Finn's entire arc in TFA and TLJ. He's not a hero until he does the right thing for the right reasons. The hints of his bravery and heroism are meant to be spread out until he makes his final decision to pick a side and stick with it.

 

Finn is introduced as a hero. I don’t agree with these summaries of him at all. Refusing to kill for the FO and therefore risking almost certain death to escape them was heroic. It wasn’t a hint of bravery. It was one of the bravest things a character did in TFA. Finn facing Kylo with a lightsaber is probably the only comparable act of courage in the film. Finn started this trilogy a good guy and there isn’t a single moment of him not being a good guy in either of the films released so far. I’m not sure where the idea that a person has to join an army the second they escape a brainwashing cult because it’s the only way a person is “good” came from, but I think it’s nonsense.

 

TFA showed Finn as a well rounded character. He isn’t perfect; he is not the tradional hero jumping into the fray without a care but he fought and did the right thing when it came down to it. He does need some nudging and help, but that isn’t bad (Harry Potter would have loved to be normal)? You can be both heroic and scared/reluctant/etc. to fight; it makes Finn all the braver and heroic for going to SKB.

TLJ’s arc was poorly done, but I get why it happened. While Finn helped the resistance in TFA, he never signed up for an extended stay and TLJ needed a way make him a fully fledged member for the next movie (to be part of the main story).

 

Look I love Finn and I think he's one of the bravest and heroic characters around. What he does at the beginning of TFA practically defines his character arc. However, Finn abandoning his friends and stealing from the Resistance is not heroic. Finn lying to the Resistance about being able to disable the shields in order save Rey is not heroic. It's nice that he does, but it doesn't change the fact that he endangers members of the Resistance in doing so.

Finn is a complex human being. He's capable of doing both brave and cowardly things. And let me be clear, Finn has every right to want to leave, but he should have gotten permission before stealing from the people who helped him. Finn attempting to leave everyone behind would have been more sympathetic had they kept the deleted scene between him and Poe because it shows the Resistance not acknowledging the fact that he doesn't belong there. However, the way the movie shows it...he's basically stealing from them and acting on his own accord, not considering how anyone else might be affected by what he's doing. And that's fine from a narrative standpoint because it shows he's flawed and the movie acknowledges that it's wrong via Rose.

Ugh, but honestly Finn's arc desperately needed the missing parts to work as well as it could have.

 

I didn’t say there isn’t a moment where he isn’t heroic. I said there isn’t a moment where is he isn’t a good guy. That’s the phrase you used.

He didn’t endanger anyone in the Resistance by wanting to not die with them for their cause. That’s false. Escape pods exist for escape. They had at least one to spare given that they were canonically operating with a skeleton crew.

“Stealing” an escape pod from a doomed ship is not and never will be a huge moral stain. That’s why they exist. It doesn’t really matter to me how RJ tried to portray Finn as selfish and terrible. RJ portrayed him as a deserter of an army he never joined. I don’t have much respect for RJ’s portrayal of Finn.

 

He was basically a concentious objector to the FO.

Put it this way (and bear with me).

I've known guys in college who didn't participate with the rest of the frat taking advantage of a drunk girl. Sure for them, not participating meant they had personal morals. But they didn't do anything to save the victim.

Also the same guys know of other frats who do the same thing during the school year.

Now are my friends heroic, because they don't engage with the rest of the frat? Or would the heroic thing be to do everything they could to shut that frat behavior down?

 

Frat boys weren’t raised in a brainwashing, murderous cult, so the comparison is false to me. Finn had no perspective, no allies, no opportunity to object and not die. What he did is astronomically more than simply not going to frat parties. I also skipped frat parties and no, that doesn’t make me heroic lol.

 

Also @AhsokaSolo , according to your post about life pods:

Then I guess according to you, what Billy Zane did at the end of the film Titanic was morally right.

 

No. Weird it’s almost like you’re deliberately misstating my point. Billy Zane was taking someone else’s seat. Finn wasn’t taking anyone’s seat. The Resistance people weren’t trying to leave. They were prepared to die for the cause they signed up to fight for. Finn wasn’t because he didn’t.

 

Lol. Escape pod on big ships are designed to carry the maximum allowed amount of people, not just one.

And just because your prepared to serve in the armed forces, doesn't mean someone can come Willy-Nilly and take an escape pod whenever they like.

 

Finn did have allies on the ship, though: Poe, BB-8, and Leia. I'm not saying he was wrong for wanting to leave, but the fact that he says that the fleet is doomed and doesn't try to help or let his friends know that he's leaving is just not cool. Regardless of how one feels about the arc or not, he is still abandoning his allies as they are literally in the middle of dying. That's all I'm saying.

 

"LOL" nobody else was trying to escape, in stark contrast to Titanic. Finn wasn't prepared to serve in these armed forces, so I don't even get your point, other than to be morally correct Finn supposedly had to willingly die for someone else's cause.

The Titanic didn't have enough life boats. The Resistance ship didn't even have a full crew. This is a made up issue to hold Finn to absurdly silly standards in order to demonize him for the crime of wanting to not die.

You're conflating two entirely different points. The bolded was in reference to Finn fleeing the FO at the beginning of TFA. It has nothing to do with Finn's attempt to escape at the beginning of TLJ.

Finn wanting to escape didn't put Poe, bb8 or Leia in danger. One has nothing to do with the other. Finn wasn't abandoning his allies to die. They were in a military fighting a war that all Finn ever wanted to do was escape. Nobody is entitled to anybody being obligated to join their cause or die for their cause. Finn is a person with the right to make his own choices as much as anybody. These standards make no sense to me whatsoever and I notice no one else is held to these kinds of silly standards. Rey cavorted with the enemy after actually joining the Resistance. She marched Luke's location to the enemy. She actually did traitorous things. Finn was just a guy caught up in a conflict not about him that wanted to escape and live his own life.

 

Oh okay, my bad.

Yes, he was. He's leaving them while they are down and out when he actually could be a means to solve a problem (and oddly enough, he is). If your friend is in the middle of a fight and getting their ass kicked (especially if you think they're fighting for a good reason), a good friend sticks around and helps them. Whether they watch from the sidelines and are there to pick them back up or they jump in, it's called loyalty. He's not obligated to help an army but considering he's friends with a commander and his sidekick and they are part of a group that just saved his life; you'd think he'd be a little more cooperative. Or at least give them enough respect to tell them that he wants to leave.

There are plenty of people that berate Rey for talking to Kylo Ren, but this honestly isn't the thread to talk about Rey's decisions. And when did she give up Luke's position to the enemy? I don't remember this at all.

 

As Rey told Luke. She had a open dialogue with Kylo, and saw a chance to turn him, which would turn the tide of the whole war and leave the FO weakened.

 

Leaving them while he's nothing but a passenger? Again, he's not in their army. He doesn't owe them his life to sit there and wait to die with them. When he came up with a way to help, he helped. Otherwise, it's not his battle and I see nothing but arrogance in the idea that he has some moral obligation to join a fight that isn't his. Now he's being judged on whether he's a good friend to them by not wanting to die with them for their cause that isn't his? How can Finn be demanded to automatically have loyalty to people he just helped btw after escaping a brainwashing cult within the last week? I find that totally, laughably absurd. These people he's supposed to automatically be willing to lay his life down for respond to him wanting to not die by tasing him. GMAB. They saved his life after he was instrumental in their ability to destroy SKB. They're more than even. Funny the standards though. Finn doesn't get any credit for anything he does for them, and it's demanded that he die for them based what they've done for him as a side note in their war that has nothing to do with him.

I'm making my point about double standards and unrealistic standards that Finn is held to. I've noticed it since TFA and it continues. Rey joined the Resistance. She actually owed them loyalty. Finn was just a guy that got caught up in a mess he didn't want to be a part of, as is 100% his right. He just escaped a cult where he spent his entire life. It's all he knows. This isn't his fight. After the way he was treated in TLJ, I personally don't buy that the Resistance deserves him anyway. He just went from one brainwashing fascist cult to another one that is better by not committing genocide, so yay, but they lost anyway.

Rey fedexing herself to force sensitive torturers that read minds delivered Luke's location to the FO. Remember that part where Snoke actually got Luke's location from her? She just got lucky that Kylo cared more about stealing the throne for a second than obtaining Luke's location before killing Snoke.

Rey didn't tell Luke. He caught her after she lied about cavorting with and befriending the enemy singularly obsessed with murdering Luke. Then she attacked Luke and delivered his location to Kylo and the rest of the army currently murdering the army she chose to join.

 

Okay, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not arrogant for thinking that Finn should have been a better friend to Poe and BB-8 or that Rose was right for doing her job by tasing him. I'm simply stating my opinion on whether or not Finn is in the wrong and I think he was, in spite of being an otherwise caring, compassionate, brave human being. If we have different perspectives, that's completely fine. However, there's no reason for condescension, especially considering that we both like the same character.

Also, I agree that there is definitely a level of standards that Finn is being held to. Ironically, I literally just said this on the on page 659:

The point I'm trying to make, though, is that Finn is still flawed in spite of being all of these great things. Personally, I'm completely fine with that and I'm sticking to that interpretation. However, if anyone else wants to see him as a completely heroic, sympathetic guy, that's fine too. We all have our own conclusions.

 

Disagree.

Hey remember when Rey STOLE the Jedi texts from Luke? Where was Rose to taser her?

lolololololololol

I know you're objecting to this, but it was intended for quick, brief usage as little/nothing more than comedy relief. I think it does lend itself to quick comedy relief to be moved on from, or at least it would if the situation wasn't so completely ****ed up if you look at it from Finn's pov, which I did, because we had never met Rose before.

I don't think it was meant to be taken too seriously. It's supposed to be Rose's introduction as a cutesy yet feisty fangirl who is totally dedicated and fierce. I think she's supposed to be something like Leia on the Death Star in ANH or during the romance with Han early in ESB. And female on male violence is funny, dontcha know? Remember when Rey charged Finn, chased him down and hit him with her stick in TFA? Hilarious!

Boyega plays it as a comedy scene, as I'm sure he was directed to, with his goofy, jittery, improvised attempts to talk his way out. It's not that far off from something Han would have done in the OT (everything's under control, situation normal), it's just horribly out of place and completely tone deaf.

It's supposed to be funny, but I didn't find it funny at all. I found it offensive. Ah ha ha let's all laugh at the idea of a former child soldier's supposed cowardice, even though he never signed up. So funny! Let's taser him and laugh. Stop, stop, I'm rolling on the floor here!

Maybe he'll piss himself in IX. Maybe we'll find out he wets the bed due to horrible nightmares. LOL what a baby! What a coward! I'm pissing myself laughing here, because this is just all so funny.

 

Nah. His character arc in TLJ has him finally overcome his cowardice and de facto heroism to a full fledged dedicated opponent to the FO.

 

Nope.

It wasn't even a participatory response.