ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

This. Finn’s arc could have been much better, but it got the job done in terms of character development. He’s a different person at the end of TLJ than he was at the beginning. Hopefully this means that Finn will have a much better storyline in Episode IX.

 

Very good observation. But we all know Finn is held to a different standard than all the rest of the characters. It's why Rey can do that and no one bats an eye despite the fact that she had intent to be taught by Luke. It's why Kylo can order the slaughter of innocent civilians, kill his dad, contribute to the death of his uncle and people still call for a redemption where he gets to takes his place as one of the good guys. It's why Poe can stage a mutiny and then use one of those ships that supposedly are off-limits to send two of his cohorts to Canto Bight. It's why Rose can taser a freshly, previously comatose Finn and treat him like a deserter even though he never joined her cause and there are people who say she's in the right for doing it.

 

@godisawesome
@Troopa212

I disagree that there's nothing of value in Rian Johnson's writing of Finn's character, but I can't stress enough that I'm in literal agreement with everyone else that his arc could have (and should have) been better. Also, talking about the double standards between Finn and Rey's characters is a bit of a tu quoque fallacy. The morality of Rey's decisions and how they are interpreted in comparison to Finn's is an entirely different discussion. I never mentioned, much less gave my opinion on, whether or not Rey was in the wrong for anything. This is not me pointing out the flaws of a black man while completely excusing the actions of white people because...hahahah no.



Now we can totally discuss that double standard, which totally exists (but is more complex than people give it credit for). However, this whole debate started because of how we interpreted Finn's actions, how it affects others, and people's responses to them. The conclusion? We all just interpret Finn differently. AND. THAT'S. FINE. In fact, that's awesome! It just means he's complex. No one is more arrogant or lesser than someone else for thinking that Finn should have abandoned ship or that Rose was right for stopping him.

Either way, chances are we won't be seeing any more of Finn running away anymore (regardless of whether or not he has a good reason to or not). I'm hoping for a more badass, warrior, leader Finn that this Trilogy has to be building up to. This reminds me a lot of The Legend of Korra where the writers gave the title character an arc in the second season that was pretty subpar in order to get her to a certain character point. Some would even argue that she regressed as a character (I am, ironically, one of those people), but the person that she became by the end of the series was groundbreaking and awesome. Even with her character arc being spotty. I'm hoping that same thing can happen for Finn. I really need that to happen for Finn.

 

This. His arc in TFA was about him learning to stand up against the First Order. This was spelled out by his interactions with Maz. He was over any cowardice he had after Takodana. I don't know where this idea that his actions are coming from a place of cowardice in TLJ is coming from. That simply isn't true; at no point was Finn a coward in TLJ.
As a matter of fact, Finn's showing a more serious disposition, ie not showing cowardice is the only thing that I've said I appreciated about his portrayal in TLJ. So there's that.

 

To the point of the bolded, that is nothing but an empty promise and when one has to resort to making empty promises of a character getting better when said character already had several opportunities to properly develop in the last film, then there likely isn't a story that was worth caring about since most of the trilogy is already over. Legend of Korra largely suffered from that exact same issue season after season to completion.

 

I don’t think that’s true at all. Some characters really do just get better with age. Even characters that were originally badly written or unlikable can be fixed with good writing. It’s rare and often times very difficult, but it’s not impossible. It helps that Finn and Korra are not badly written characters. I don’t even think Finn’s arc in TLJ is badly written, just not well paced and a bit choppy. However, I will say that at least Finn was always in-character. Everything that Finn did in TLJ, I believed that he would do. Season 2 Korra on the other hand, I don’t know what was going on there. I just know that I loved her character in seasons 3 and 4.

 

I love Legend of Korra and Korra as a character but there was something so troubling about the way her character was written in season 2 (particularly the first half), instead of giving us insight into her personal feelings of all the responsibility she was taking on they simply had her be reactionary to characters close to her in a way that felt inauthentic and simply there to cause pointless drama. (her interactions with Tenzin and parents) Which is something I think happens when the writers simply don't know how to write for a character. Season 3 was better definitely but I feel like she didn't get a real episode focused on her until season 4 ep1 (Korra Alone) which for it to have taken that long is awful. And similar to Finn trying to input complexity that late in the game can be somewhat for nothing in that people have already made up their mind on the character.

 

Hmm...I don't know. For one, Finn has always been pretty complex. He was the most complex character in TFA along with Kylo Ren. Just because TLJ didn't do as much with him doesn't automatically make him a flat character. Also, an entire movie's worth of development has the potential to provide massive growth. I mean, at the end of the day people are going to remember whatever they want to remember about a character. Some people are going to think Finn was at his best in TFA. Many people think that Korra's character was completely butchered in Season 4 and tend to like her Season 3 portrayal the most. Some people remember Luke for what he was in OT and completely disregard his portrayal TLJ.

Sidenote: I thought "A New Spiritual Age" (LOK Season 2 Episode 10) was a fantastic episode that ended Korra's character arc and her growth. Even with her arc not being that good, it still ended pretty strong.

 

I wasn't calling you arrogant. I called the idea of it arrogant, and it's an idea that is in the movie itself.

The movie acts like he has a moral obligation to join a fight that isn't his, and I find that incredibly arrogant, not to mention fascist.

Of course Finn is flawed. Refusing to jump from one cult membership to another without having a chance to think for himself is not one of them.

I'm re-quoting this just because it's so gloriously dead on. It's a perfect summary of why I have no respect for RJ's portrayal of Finn's arc.

 

Another quick observation on Poe and that ship. Remember when that ship that no one had a right to use got impounded at Canto Bight, never got back to the Resistance and no one gave a crap? Remember how Poe is reprimanded for the mutiny but it is never brought up that the Resistance was missing that ship when they were making their escape to Crait. Yeah, me too and I've only seen the movie once. Hmm, it's almost like Finn could have used that ship for his own personal mission and nothing would have changed for the Resistance as far as having enough transportation.

 

Well, like I said before, I interpret his decisions and goals differently. Here are my interpretations: Finn not wanting to join the Resistance? Understandable. Finn wanting to leave a doomed ship in order to survive? Completely relatable. Finn wanting to protect Rey from harm? Noble. Finn taking a Resistance ship without their permission? Not noble. Rose doing her job by zapping Finn? Justified.

But...that Resistance ship was used for a Resistance mission. It was still authorized by a high ranking member. Just because the Resistance has ships to spare doesn't mean Finn has the right to take one without their permission. That's like saying that grand theft auto is okay if a person has multiple cars. Or that stealing a car from someone that has more than one is the equivalent to an owner lending one to a friend to run errands (only for the friend to get into a car accident).

 

At least phrase it accurately. Finn would be taking a life pod off of a doomed ship he didn't choose to be on in the first place. Completely understandable and normal. OTOH, the Resistance forcing Finn to sit tight and die on a doomed ship? Evil.

Fascist. Abusive.

Oh nosies, Finn would be immoral by stealing a ship they don't need just to not die!!

Yeah, Finn's life is actually worth more than the moral value of not "stealing" an unneeded ship without permission.

 

The ship isn't brought up because they don't know about it until the mutiny. Finn was wrong to try to take the ship, especially without asking, I don't see why that's up for debate. Finn wasn't the only person she stunned. She stopped 3 people before him that's 4 different ships that would have been gone. The resistance doesn't know if they will need the ships that's why it's important not to take them.
Plus trying to run was disrespectful to Rey's wishes as long as he had the beacon. If Finn told Poe the truth at the beginning of tlj, I think Poe would have let him leave as long as he left the beacon. Finn figuring out how to solve the problem with Rose is what led to him staying and helping because he was of more use there instead of running away.

ETA: He's on that ship because the resistance is saving his life and providing treatment to his injuries. I think he prefers being on that ship and not left on skb.

 

Those other people Rose tased were Resistance members. If someone wanted to call them deserters, unlike with Finn, it wouldn’t be factually inaccurate.

Finn got those injuries enabling the Resistance to destroy SKB. They’re more then even.

 

It's not about being even, it's about doing the right thing. Rose seems to think he's a member of the resistance, a hero no less, but he is still not allowed to take their resources because they might need them later.
Like I said Poe probably would have let him run but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do because they are even.

 

I guess the remembering what you want point is especially true because even if a character has great qualities, people tend to allow what they don't like blind them to things that worked very well. Finn has things I like and dislike but I like to try not to drown myself in negativity regarding him because it can get quite exhausting, even from me.

Also I know its off topic but i recently binged all of Korra and missed all the fandom consensus when it aired, why is Korra disliked in season 4, I thought "Korra Alone" is one of strongest ep's she had in the series outside the one you mentioned, and the ptsd aspect of her story continuing throughout was also very interesting to me.

 

Rose was wrong, imo. Because she acted out of ignorance, I don't really blame her too much. If she knew the whole story about Finn, and made the same choice, I would blame her and say she was the one in the wrong, she was the one lacking nobility.

As it is, that scene, and the petty, selfish, stingy hoarding of an escape pod makes the Resistance look like ****, imo. It made me want Finn to leave them. They no longer deserve him, imo, and I don't even have a high opinion of him. Not a fan. That's how low the Resistance has sunk in my eyes.

 

So the only way for Finn to do the right thing is to willingly die for a cause that’s not his a couple days after he escaped his life in a murderous cult?

If Finn wanted to leave, he had every right to. If it’s not about them being even, you wouldn’t have brought up the Resistance healing his injuries he got helping them in the first place. You brought it up to act like he owes them something. Funny, only the Resistance gets credit for the good they do, while Finn doesn’t. Meanwhile, the Resistance is excused when they act like fascists.

 

I don’t know but I woke up in a warship in the middle of a war I never joined, and I heard my only friend was in risk of being pulled into this mess, I would also be more than compelled to take an escape pod to get the hell away from it and warn her. If someone tased me I would hella pissed off and hardly motivated to join them. I wished they had explored that in Finn's arc, because a lot of it just doesn't feel natural to me.

It might have been cowardly for him to try to escape, but it’s no way immoral to want to escape a war you never willingly joined in the first place. There is a point to be made about selfishly wasting escape pods, but the movie itself never touches on that subject neither presents Finn as wasting resources since the Resistance has plenty other escape vehicles and we don’t see anybody using escape pods.

I also find it weird that Finn is constantly denied of choosing his own destiny. His arc is about learning not to run way and sacrificing himself for the Resistance, but it would feel more meaningly if he was actually given a fair opportunity to get away from it without Rose putting a leash on him. It just feels like he has no other option but to fight for the Resistance, and that doesn’t feel very fulfilling as a character arc.

Wished he had actually escaped on his own just so he could back on his own volition and not because he was tased into submission (even if it was a retread of Han’s arc in ANH).

 

Either Finn has implicit permission to leave and Rose is simply ignorant and wrong about that...or he doesn't, and the Resistance is wrong and I hate them.

Which is it?

Has there been any official word on this from anyone at LFL? Can someone ask? I'd like to know.

 

Please don't tell me what I think because you obviously don't know. I don't have an imaginary tally system set up for who is in debt to who between Finn and the resistance. I was operating on the basic premise that both sides are just trying to do the right thing.
For the third time, Finn could have left if he wanted but I think he should have told Poe so he would not have been stealing resources or have to lie to Rose which is what gets him stunned when he might have been allowed to leave if he told the truth.

We don't see people trying to escape because she's already stopped 3 people.

 

That's...not what happened.

*sighs*

No. Finn should have asked for help.

Oh no, ironically people love "Korra Alone" (as do I). It's arguably the best episode of the season. Also, people didn't hate Korra as a character in Season 4 like they did back in Season 2. It's just that many fans weren't really fond of her becoming less headstrong and feeling that she had to suffer in order to be a better person. Depending on who you ask, it kind of sends a bad message, especially considering she was already a great person.

See, this is a perspective that I understand and I agree that this is the problem with the arc. It's rushed. And underdeveloped.

That being said, I don't agree that Rey is Finn's only friend. Poe and BB-8 are also on the "doomed ship" as well as Leia. So that's what makes Finn's decision to leave less sympathetic for me personally. These are people that could have helped him in some way (and they have). He didn't instantly have to resort to stealing. Also, Rey would not have been okay with it either.

 

Lol at everyone calling the team Leia built, a cult.

I can't take anyone seriously in this thread anymore.

It too bad, Finn doesn't feel a since of responsibility to prevent the FO from taking over everything and forcing more toddler children into their ranks like he was.

I guess more people here wish Finn went his own way and was not empathetic at all. You know, that same empathy that causes him not to shoot on an innocent village.

 

I think it would’ve been more reasonable and natural if Rose prevented Finn from escaping because they were in the middle of a war and he could’ve been shot down by enemy fire, so if he really wanted to get away from it he should patiently wait for an opportunity where he can be safely dropped off. That should’ve been in the actual dialogue, instead of “oh noes you’re traitor so I’m going to tase you into submission!!” which only painted Rose as borderline psychotic.

I once (in another thread) brought Gundam as a space fantasy franchise that has a lot of similar plot points with Star Wars, and now I remember that one thing that also happened in the first Gundam series was that there was a situation where the heroes’ cruiser was carrying war refugees and people caught up in the middle of the war that were brought in for treatment as they fled from an enemy attack, and these people wanted to take a ship an escape. But they weren't initially allowed to because they were being pursued by the enemy and it’s not like they could be dropped off in the middle of nowhere, so they had to wait for an opportunity to get off the ship. But you know, that reason and motive was presented in the dialogue, and nobody treated them as traitors or cowards for wanting to get away from that mess.

Finn and Poe's bit in TFA was my favorite and they had a lot of chemistry; that said, just because Poe, a guy he barely knew, wanted to fight that war, does not obligate Finn to follow suit. BB8 hardly had interactions with Finn, same as Leia. Finn didn't own anybody anything, but if he felt compelled to go after Rey to warn her or get her out of this mess, that does not make him more or less sympathetic. I also don't think Finn's choice was the more righteous one, but it was a very human and understandable one, and the movie hardly gave reasons to why he should't.