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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Momotaros, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    Ok, well in my original post I already stated that in a universe where they probably have a safety sign on Vader's ship showing X number of days without a force choke related death is telling.
     
  2. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    I think people just want to see more inner turmoil and complex feelings from Finn and less slapstick humor. I don't find it to be outrageous to want to see a more deeper and complex Finn, especially considering how his life was flipped upside down in TFA.

    You can't compare Luke, Han and Leia with Finn because none of them were ever stormtroopers. We still didn't get a in-movie explanation on where Finn stood with the other troopers in the FO given that he came to the aid of one at the beginning. Was he friendly or close to any of them? That's an important detail that was overlooked in the script, in my opinion.
     
  3. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    the thing is, most viewers don't even know how FO troops are programed to be emotionless robots. Thats the issue with the movie. While I don't think its that big of a deal, some people found finn's actions to be hypocritical I guess. A lot of it could've been handled better, but whattayou gonna do?
     
  4. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    I also think it's important to note that having opinions about characters and discussing them on a message board isn't hate or denigration. Posters can agree or disagree, but doesn't give either side the high ground on their appreciation of the character as a whole.
     
  5. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015

    Uh....I think a lot of posts like that have less to do with the writing and more to do with.....other things (or thing) regarding finn.
     
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  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015

    I can compare them and I just did. Who cares if they weren't ST's? They're all characters in SW. They're soldiers that watched their friends and family die. Luke's lifelong best friend died in that battle over the first Death Star. Leia lost her entire home, her family, her people.

    I didn't say anything is "outrageous," I just don't agree with applying double standards to Finn alone. I have no problems with them making Finn deeper and more complex with time. All of the OT3 became more developed with more movies. Finn has had one movie. They gave him the time to have a real arc with character development. In TLJ, he'll have a deeper arc (at least, I'm fully expecting that). It will take his character further. Everything couldn't be in TFA.
     
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  7. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016

    Right. I also think it's quite plausible that he really knew only one other decent person in the FO, and that was his friend that was killed.
     
  8. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015

    I don't think TFA portrayed them as emotionless robots. TFA portrayed them as true believers. They didn't flinch, other than Finn, at being ordered to slaughter a village. None of them, other than Finn, acted like there was anything unusual about their day. TR8R (or whatever people call him) acted emotional over Finn's betrayal, like he took it personally. Kylo acted like it was personal. STs chanted with their Hitler-esque leader before slaughtering trillions of people. I didn't read Finn's tie-in novel, and if they were portrayed as robots in that book, I actually think that would make them more sympathetic than they were in TFA.

    When Finn discussed the FO, he wasn't talking about robots. He was terrified of them, of what they can do, of what they wanted to do.
     
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  9. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    So because Han, Luke, and Leia reacted a certain way it's fine that Finn reacted the same way because..... every character in SW are the same? What?!

    BTW, in no way shape or form did Han and Leia become deeper and more complex as the OT went on. They all stayed stagnant. Han's character arc was completed in ANH and Leia really didn't have an arc at all.
     
  10. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    I understand the difference very well. You do what you have to do, and once more... all I'm saying is that they could have toned down his enthusiasm with killing the stormtroopers at the outset. Then show seeds of his desire to not just flee from, but to fight head on the FO after Hosnia was destroyed. If the cohort example was too real, then again that's exactly my point with respect to how military folks see it and there should be no offense taken for that perspective when it is expressed.
     
  11. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Plausible? Why do we as an audience have to make a guess to if Finn was close or friendly with these people he was raised with? It could have been handled a lot better than what we got. Some dialogue out of Finn's mouth about this would have been nice and not another comic relief moment JJ had to cram in.
     
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  12. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    I miss the days when people remembered what Star Wars was...and wasn't.

    Are you looking for the series launched off by George Lucas' bright eyed, fast paced, relatively light Star Wars or films in the tradition of Ang Lee, Scorsese, or Elia Kazan?

    Because this is the series where Leia lost a planet and the next time we see her she's playfully sassing a too short storm trooper. The series where Luke watches the burned husks of the aunt and uncle who raised him, only to hours later be caught up in an adventure with old Ben. The same series where the rebel alliance lost scores of people in the battle of Endor, yet later that evening they're yub yubbing it up with glorified teddy bears.

    One of the big problems with modern SW isn't the films themselves, but rather what many fans have begun to mistake the films for. There are many, many things SW simply is not, never has been, and never will be.
     
  13. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016

    Generally, I agree. Though I'm thrilled that the anthologies are expanding what Star Wars is, and can be.
     
  14. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015

    I never said Finn must react exactly the same way as Han, Luke and Leia. Strawmen aren't persuasive. I said I don't agree with double standards, or critiques that expect SW to suddenly start being something different from what it always was.

    I don't agree with you about Han or Leia. With Leia, we didn't know in ANH the deep history her family had with the rebellion. We didn't know why this Imperial princess was so loyal to the rebellion. We learned that later. With Han, watched him develop from the guy in ANH that discovered his ability to put the right thing ahead of himself, and then we watched him become a family man. Han and Leia were stagnant in RotJ (but definitely not in ESB), I agree with that, but that is one movie… although it did finally establish that Han's love for Leia wasn't just a passing fling.
     
  15. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    In no way were the OT perfect films. So the lack of emotional resonance were some of my major gripes with those films.
     
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  16. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    There is no double standard with Finn because we've NEVER seen a SW character like him with his background. So comparing him with Han, Luke and Leia is pointless.
     
  17. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015

    His arc wasn't about his decision to flee the FO and then to immediately join the Resistance. This is now going into a different conversation about Finn's development. Let's separate these two things out:

    1. If you think he celebrated too much in the beginning, then you do. I personally don't think it's any different from any of the other bizarre, silly celebrating throughout SW. SW is all about toning down the seriousness of war because above all, SW is fun.

    2. About Finn's arc, I mean, if you have a serious criticism of the arc they chose to give him, then you do. They wrote Finn intentionally to be all about fleeing the FO, and I get why. He's a young guy, and very, very naive. As he told Maz, he believes that the FO can't be defeated. He doesn't understand that the rest of the galaxy has faced this enemy before and understands it. He only knows what he has seen, which is a cult that conquers and/or destroys everything in its path. Finn knew what they were planning for SKB before it was used. That was, imo, what he was talking about with Maz when he told her she didn't know anything about him, and everyone needed to run. He didn't think SKB could be destroyed. He was Han-like in that way. He was out for himself, in that he wanted a life, and imo, that's a perfectly fine place for a hero's arc to begin.



    LOL yeah it's a blatant double standard. With Finn alone, you expect SW to suddenly be different than it always has been, and when it's not, you criticize Finn's character for it. Maybe you're just not that into SW.
     
  18. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014

    Yeah, that's kind of what I mean - Rey's story needs some explaining, but I don't mind if it leaves us to fill in the gaps. If we find out she is related to Luke, or has a destiny that is wrapped up with the Skywalkers, then I'm happy for that to work as the explanation for a fair few things.
     
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  19. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

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    May 8, 2014
    Why would I expect it to be the way it's always been when we've never seen a character with Finn's story before in a SW movie? That doesn't make any sense to expect the same thing.

    SW isn't just fun gags and silliness. Every once in awhile the story takes itself VERY seriously.
     
  20. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004

    Look, give me a deep, rich character study or political melodrama starring Palpatine, preferably produced by Lucasfilm and Netflix, and I'll eat it up and come back for seconds and thirds.

    But that's not this series. Even with the concept expanding it's never going to become something it's not. I mean Disney has done an impressive job expanding the Marvel film universe, yet it's never, ever going to approach depth you'd find in your average, character driven indie release.

    I mean take a look at this conversation. Finn's conflicted moments at the top of TFA and his residual fear displayed during his attempt to run at Maz castle? That's pretty character defining stuff by SW standards. This is the same series where most of Han and Luke's major character shifts happened offscreen.
     
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  21. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 23, 2015
    What could work in that vein is a Netflix short about FN2187's life in the academy played by an actor say around 12 or 13... perhaps Ender Bean's age. This could be a way to get some insight into the world they opened up when Finn stepped out of the autonomous monster that is the Stormtrooper Corps. Right now there seems to be two camps, those who want to continue to think of them as meatshields, and those who wonder if there are any Kyles out there waiting to break out as well.
     
  22. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 19, 2016
    Exactly. There is a balance that can and, in my opinion, should be struck between 'fun' and 'serious' . I don't see the point in giving a character as serious a background as Finn has and only to simply drop it in favor of pace. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not looking for super serious character study type stuff. All I'm looking for is a balance that fits more with his background and that separates him from Han. I don't want to see pretty much the exact same character with pretty much the same motivations and personality the only difference being his race and his background.
     
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  23. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2003
    Wait, how does Finn share the same motivations and personality as Han? Han cared about making money and wasn't interested in dying for causes he didn't believe in, he had no stake in the fight against the Empire. Finn wanted to outrun the reaches of the First Order and wasn't interested in staying around to fight them because he didn't believe SKB could be defeated. The only thing connecting them is that they both take action to help a newfound friend. And personality couldn't be more different. Han is a confident, assured veteran, while Finn is a naive and somewhat skittish individual with far more vulnerability. The only thing they have in common is they like to whoop.

    Why is it that so many people on these forums completely misunderstand Finn and Rey, and yet at the same time tend to be the most vocal in their criticism of these characters? It seems that half the time, you're complaining about a strawman version of the character that you create yourselves.

    And yes, it is a double standard. There are many firsts in terms of characters with backgrounds we've never seen before in a SW movie. You could just as easily have stopped at Jango Fett and wondered why AOTC didn't explore how he felt about there being millions of clones that looked like him, becoming slaves to the Kaminoans. Similarly, did you ever stop to wonder about poor Greivous and wanted ROTS to show us how he felt about losing his human body but now having a strong new mechanical body, about him being taught how to use lightsabres to kill Jedi. How does Kenobi feel about being a spirit, how has the transition affected him? You chose TFA and Finn for SW to suddenly start exploring deep, serious personal stories...
     
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  24. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    I feel like I watched such a different cut of TFA than some other people.

    Because Finn came across as pretty damn well rounded to me, and he certainly didn't feel like the butt of every joke whose central purpose was comic relief. And he's a VERY different character than Han Solo.

    I read these posts that suggest he was extremely one thing, or another, and it shocks me because there seem to be so many contrary moments that are undervalued, if not totally ignored. The character had more layers than his co-lead Rey, and was better written than just about anyone not Han Solo.
     
  25. Psycho Weiner

    Psycho Weiner Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017

    Yeah I just don't get it, some people are so determined to criticise TFA that they wilfully ignore things in the film that explain the things they say are not explained, and expect a level of depth and sophistication that even the OT never managed, let alone the PT. And they are happy to ignore the lack of such qualities in the characters of the PT, whose motivations are hardly ever explored, and whose actions often make no sense. It's a complete double standard.

    Also it's pretty depressing that we have ended up in yet another argument about the merits of TFA, in a thread that's meant to be looking forward to TLJ.