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Johnny Cochran helping to bring suit against the NFL

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Devilanse, Oct 3, 2002.

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  1. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    I heard recently on FOX Sports Radio that the intrepid Mr. Cochran is handling a lawsuit against the National Football League.

    The basis for the suit is that there are not enough black coaches in the league. I wasn't able to catch who is filing the suit. I would like to discuss whether you think this is a just cause, or is it more junk lawsuit abuse.


    My opinion on this matter is this...

    There are indeed few black coaches in the league. But there is a plain and simple reason for this, Mr. Cochran...

    There aren't any good ones.

    No, thats not a racist remark. While I am sure there is still discrimintation going on in big money corporations like the NFL, the fact is that blacks have no reason to gripe about the way the NFL does its business. So many blacks are making millions of dollars playing in that league. And shouldn't this suit be brought against specific teams who are found guilty of being prejudiced...not against the entire league?

    I also heard this argument during a college football game last year. It was when Notre Dame was thinking of hiring a black coach (which they did) some people were saying that it would be prejudiced if N.D. didn't hire him. I have one thing to say to that.

    If football needs more black coaches...it also needs more white players.

    Why aren't there more white players? For the same reason there aren't more black coaches.

    I'd like no stupid racist remarks in this thread please. Only honest discussion.



     
  2. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Let's hope he doesn't break out the Chewbacca defense. :p
     
  3. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    The Chewbacca defense? Must've been how he helped get OJ off. LOL.
     
  4. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    I don't know about there "not being any good ones". Art Shell in Oakland and Denny Green in Minnesota were pretty soild coaches and had very good records.

    My importantly though...I don't think we need Afirmative Action in a field as petty as sports. I mean, it's entertainment for Godssake! Why not hire more black kickers, even if they're not the best...just to "even it out"? They always seem to be white! How about putting more white guys at linebacker, even if there just happens to be more black men that are better at that position in the league?

    The "need" for everything to be "equal" is ridiculously p.c. in this country. There are laws protecting blacks and other minorities against discrimination in hiring practices. Should the league just AUTOMATICALLY hire 16 white coaches and 16 blacks, just to make it look good? Please! What about Native Americans, Asians, and Hispanics who are not represented in the NFL's coaching positions? [face_plain]

    I'm all for an equal shot for QUALIFIED PEOPLE, regardless of their race, for ANY job. They're RESUME should be was gets them hired. Not preference for skin color, NOR should a person (who MAY be less qualified) be hired just to "fill a quota". I'm all for "equal" rights, and all against Afirmative Action, quotas, and p.c. media-pigs like Cochran, Sharpton, and Jackson.

    My .02.
     
  5. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    It's from South Park.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, (Pulls down picture of Chewbacca) this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it. That does not make sense. Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor with a bunch of two-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense. But more important, you have to ask yourself, "What does this have to do with this case?"

    Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case.

    It does not make sense. Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense. And so you have to remember when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No. Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit.

    The defense rests.


     
  6. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    LoL that's great. [face_laugh]
     
  7. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    Back on topic please.

    I'm with you, Ferel. PC is turning this world into a society of "synthetic politeness"

    I agree with you that Art and Dennis were good coaches. But one could say..."How many Superbowls did they win?" Thats an unfair question because many different circumstances can happen to the team you coach that could cause you to lose games....like drafting Randy Moss. But Sports is an unfair and unforgiving institution. You are put in the coaching position to WIN. Thats all. Whoever said winning isn't everything obviously never coached a professional sports team.

    If there is any justice...this case will be thrown out and Mr. Cochran will be disbarred. What are the chances of that happening, eh?

     
  8. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Very little I assume with today's climate and depending on how much the media latches on to this story. I agree with you about p.c. While I think discrimnation is wrong, I feel that MANY times these days, we go overboard and lock other qualified people out of positions in order to make things "look" "balanced".

    As far as justice...I'm cyncial enough to say: "justice" is only for those who can afford it. Cochran will probably get his way.
     
  9. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    Yes...Justice is a very expensive mistress. Must have been why she got her eyes gouged out. LOL.


    Another word of the day, Ferel? Have you posted the definition of this gem of diction? If not...what does it mean so I can use it inappropriately with my gf later.
     
  10. Darth_Drunk

    Darth_Drunk Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Does anybody here watch football? If you did, you would realize just how many great black assistant coaches get passed over for jobs.

    I am a Notre Dame fan and was screaming for Willingham the first time around. The relationship between acedemics and athletics at Standford is almost identical to Notre Dame. Willingham fits the system perfectly.

    As for sports being too petty for affirmative action, it is a multi-billion dollar industry and a head coach is very high profile.
     
  11. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Johnny Chochran.. now that is the epitomy of what everyone despises lawyers for.

    If you ever needed an example of it, it would be either him or Alan Dershowitz (sp?).
     
  12. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I'm all for an equal shot for QUALIFIED PEOPLE, regardless of their race, for ANY job.

    I completely agree. I've also seen many minorities say the same thing, saying in effect, "I don't need to have a job handed to me. I'll get it on my own, thank you very much."
     
  13. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    I completely agree. I've also seen many minorities say the same thing, saying in effect, "I don't need to have a job handed to me. I'll get it on my own, thank you very much."


    I completely agree, as well.

    :)
     
  14. DarthPhelps

    DarthPhelps Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2002
    I agree with ferelwookie on this issue: I'm all for an equal shot for QUALIFIED PEOPLE, regardless of their race, for ANY job. They're RESUME should be was gets them hired. Not preference for skin color, NOR should a person (who MAY be less qualified) be hired just to "fill a quota". I'm all for "equal" rights, and all against Afirmative Action, quotas, and p.c. media-pigs like Cochran, Sharpton, and Jackson.

    Of course, I've heard Darth_Drunk's issue also, and that is a point. If qualified people are not being interviewed for reasons such as race, that is wrong. I disapprove of Affirmative Action style methods of dealing with the wrong, however. Bringing the issue to light is possibly one way to address it. Certainly using draft picks as a means of reward and punishment is NOT. That's ridiculous, Mr. Cochran.

    What I'd like to know is, have the various 'qualified' assistant coaches, or collegiate coaches been given a fair shake by having gone through the interview process? If so, the case should have no legs to stand on, IMO.
     
  15. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    Yes, Darth Drunk....some of us watch football. Despite your argument, this case is still full of crap.

    If they are going to argue that there needs to be more black coaches...it's only fair that there be more white players.

    If this case goes on to win...then it will be a bigger blow to the black coaches than anything. Teams will be made to hire a black coach just to fill a stupid race quota. Screw that. That has just as much racism attached to it than the alleged "black listing" of black coaches. No pun intended.

    If its found out that black coaches are getting the shaft...then I'm all for some kind of punishment...TO THE TEAM THAT IS FOUND GUILTY OF IT. If not...too bad, black coaches....you'll have to scratch and claw for the coaching jobs like everyone else.
     
  16. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    No one should be hired on the basis of race, PERIOD.
     
  17. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    The problem here is that Cochran is arguing against and for racism out of the two sides of his mouth.

    He's making a case basically to line his own unscrupulous pockets and for the self-promotional limelight. His doing this by coming in under the guise of fighting racism, but he's trying to establish quotas regardless of legitimate qualification and Cochran also wants it established that teams with black head coaches get more first choice draft picks than other NFL teams with non-black coaches. That's racism, also striking at the heart of fair play in establishing an unfair practice to strengthen and give an advantage to those coaches solely on the basis of race. That's tantamount to giving the teams a potential point spread akin to the extra points given on a postal exam to certain minorities.

    Giving any sort of advantage is just another form of racism, not equality.

    This isn't even touching upon the legal abuses caused in a judicial system already so terribly exploited, overtaxed, and abused by trial lawyers.

     
  18. Devilanse

    Devilanse Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    This case is so ridiculous, the judge will have to throw this one out....


    won't he/she?
     
  19. Darth_Drunk

    Darth_Drunk Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Yes, Darth Drunk....some of us watch football.

    Not including you.

    If they are going to argue that there needs to be more black coaches...it's only fair that there be more white players

    You are right. I can't Brett Favre think of a single Kurt Warner high profile Mike Alstot white football player Brian Erlacker who gets millions in adds Jason Sehorn and there is no Ed McCaffrey balance among Bill Romanowski black a nd white players in the Drew Bledsoe NFL.

    Also, your argument isn't completly irrelevant.

    Could you answer me why the few black coaches are the fastest to get fired?

    Baseball already has that rule and it has done nothing to hurt the game.Its opened doors and while not drastically changing the face of managers, has probably lead to the hiring of good managers.
     
  20. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Could you answer me why the few black coaches are the fastest to get fired?

    It's gotta be racism right? I mean everywhere across the entire NFL at the highest and lowest echelons of ownership and management exist lurking closet bigots who only hire black coaches so they can subsequently fire them later, right? Especially the winning ones, right? Bigotry is more important than the dollar right? Or fear of legal reprisal in the age of politically correctness/ propagandistic constraints.

    That makes sense right?
    In any kinda of conspiracy theory sort of way?



    Could you answer for me why a 12-15% demographic of the U.S. population manages to have cornered a 50+% share of the crime market? That would be a conservative estimation.

    (See, FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Statistics.)



    Whoops! Certain crime bureau facts are inconveniently politically incorrect.


    Life's just full of puzzling questions isn't it?



    Point Being: It isn't necessarily a racist conspiracy theory so much as issues of personal responsibility and accountability.

    And, it becomes a sick travesty when the race card is pulled superflously as a sad manipulating leverage because it belittles the real and actual incidences that occur.

    Cochran's momma should've taught him about the boy who cried wolf. Everyone else's momma should've taught them every time "wolf" is cried there isn't always a real wolf, just twisted manipulations and machinations.





     
  21. Darth_Drunk

    Darth_Drunk Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    A) Did I ever say "conspiracy"? I don't think so. I think it has more to do with a subconscious mentality. I think making them aware of the problem will help to fix it.

    B)I'm politically correct? Look at my other posts. In a few days my website will up and running. Believe me you will eat those words.

    C)That has more to do with economics and social issues but that is completly irrelevent in this topic. Stick to the issues.

    D)I am not a supporter of affirmative action, but there is something seriously wrong when the ratio of white to black coaches is not even close to the ratio of white to black players. I think that also wipes out your "lets get more white players" argument.

    You still haven't answered my points. You just made a bunch of irrelevent remarks.
     
  22. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    "A) Did I ever say "conspiracy"? I don't think so. I think it has more to do with a subconscious mentality. I think making them aware of the problem will help to fix it."

    Then, it's a subconcious "conspiracy"? :)

    There is no problem. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it.

    Maybe the subconsious problem is on the part of Cochran and constituents, huh? How do you determine, eh?






    "B)I'm politically correct? Look at my other posts. In a few days my website will up and running. Believe me you will eat those words."

    Did I say you were politically correct? No, I didn't. My words were in relation to the NFL owners and managers and current social trend.


    Wishful thinking. And I have no idea what your website has to do with anything, and I doubt I'll be visiting.

    Tell it to the FBI and Johnny Cochran.


    "C)That has more to do with economics and social issues but that is completly irrelevent in this topic. Stick to the issues."

    Well, I can't imagine how you think it is "irrelevent" to the topic, as it has direct bearing. We're talking about racism, particular regarding a specific cultural demographic, right? That's what's at the core of the issue, right?



    "D)I am not a supporter of affirmative action, but there is something seriously wrong when the ratio of white to black coaches is not even close to the ratio of white to black players. I think that also wipes out your "lets get more white players" argument."

    I didn't say a word about getting more "white" players, or singling out any other race.

    But, it seems pretty apparent to me that if the Owners have no problem with black players that it is unlikely they would have any problem with black coaches. The same "subconcious mentality" of descrimination should be playing out where the roster is concerned. It isn't. Bottom line here is that you're undermining your own argument.

    Really? What would be an acceptible ratio? 50/50?
    Since the the black population is 12-15% should that be the ratio? What is the ratio?

    And who's to say that those statistics are any reflection of competence? There's no study I'm aware of that guarantees a corresponding ratio of competency in all fields in all demographics is a certainty.


    So, were back to filling quotas then?



    You didn't bother to directly answer my questions above.


    BTW, I think you might not know what the word "irrelevent" means.


    P.S.-I did answer your assertions, which is what my comments addressed, but I fail to agree that you made any relevent points.


    How about some figures. Show me how many white coaches were fired in 2000 and 1999 as opposed to how many black coaches.


    It is my belief, that regardless of race or gender, or any other factor, an NFL owner is more concerned with who can take his franchise to the Super Bowl. That's the bottom line.

    I don't see any reason to subject the NFL to another social experiment, or impose unfair practices regarding draft picks, or enforce some sort of quota.

    That Cochran is saying an NFL franchise should have additional first picks as some sort of weird incentive is also akin to saying that a black coach also needs the special advantage of additional atheletic talent over other non-black coached teams in order to succeed. If I were a black coach his words would be insulting to me.
     
  23. Darth_Drunk

    Darth_Drunk Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    ir·rel·e·vant Pronunciation Key (-rl-vnt)
    adj.
    Unrelated to the matter being considered.


    How is that? Sort of like comparing the ethnic populations of the United States to the ethnic makeup of the NFL. I am willing to bet a large sum that there is a greater percantage of black players in the NFL than 12%. I bet 50/50 is a little low too. So ya, your fact about the 12% population minority is very irrelevant.

    You didn't bother to directly answer my questions above.

    Did you ask any?


    It is not a matter of filling quotas. I said before that the point is that there are a lot of black coaches and coordinators getting overlooked for headcoaching jobs.

    I can give you numbers that prove more white coaches were fired during most years. However, take a look at how many black coaches lost their jobs last year (both of them).
     
  24. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I just went back and edited my last post under "D."



    "How is that? Sort of like comparing the ethnic populations of the United States to the ethnic makeup of the NFL. I am willing to bet a large sum that there is a greater percantage of black players in the NFL than 12%. I bet 50/50 is a little low too. So ya, your fact about the 12% population minority is very irrelevant."


    You are shooting yourself in the foot. On the one hand you want to say there is discrimination in the NFL and on the other you're saying that by comparison of public statistics the NFL hires far more black players than would comparatively represent their demographic.

    How is that prejudice? If the NFL is made up of 50% black players from a 12-15% demographic, I'd say the NFL has hired blacks in a percentile disproportion in their favor.

    No, none of my words are irrelevent, that's just your way of dismissing something you want to duck while on the soapbox.


    So, why, praytell, would those some forces in ownership and management discriminate against blacks coaching and not against the ball players?

    Either they are prejudice or they aren't. Either their "subconcious mentality" is kicking in and they are firing all the black players they hire, or they are just interested in winning games utilizing the best recognizeable talent available to them.



    "Did you ask any?"

    Yeah. Go back and count the question marks at the end of sentences. I asked a bunch.



    "It is not a matter of filling quotas. I said before that the point is that there are a lot of black coaches and coordinators getting overlooked for headcoaching jobs."

    Prove to me they were overlooked. Show me that they weren't looked at very carefully and all things considered didn't meet the criterion.


    "I can give you numbers that prove more white coaches were fired during most years. However, take a look at how many black coaches lost their jobs last year (both of them). "

    So, what's your point?
    White coaches get fired too. In fact multiple times in excess of the number of the black coaches.

    So, you think, apparently, that both of those coaches were persecuted by owners and management despite their glorious talent? Ridiculous.


    The name of the game is winning the game.

    Why would they have even been hired in the first place?



    WHAT IF, the most qualified applicants were actually non-black? Should those candidates be overlooked and discarded because they are white and the NFL needs more black coaches?

    WHAT IF, both are equally qualified why should the black coach be hired over the non-black coach?

    What about Oriental coaches? How many of them are there? Should we know have a lawsuit on their part?
    The don't have many coaches or players.
    What about Mexican coaches?
    Arabic?


    How do we work out this rainbow?


     
  25. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Sort of like comparing the ethnic populations of the United States to the ethnic makeup of the NFL. I am willing to bet a large sum that there is a greater percantage of black players in the NFL than 12%. I bet 50/50 is a little low too. So ya, your fact about the 12% population minority is very irrelevant.

    I believe the latest census numbers that I remember had the black population in the U.S. more closer to 16%, but this is essentially irrealevant. As I mentioned in an earlier post...what about Native American/ Asian / Hispanic coaches? If we are going to be "equal", there should actually be MORE HISPANIC head coaches than blacks, because they now make up a larger portion of our population than blacks and statistics show that within a generation, there will be more Hispanics in this country then even whites!

    So, how many head coaches in the NFL (or ANY other major pro sport, for that matter) are there? 0, to my knowledge. Not very 'fair' if we are to be Rainbow Collition about this.

    I've seen estimates that state that the makeup of the NFL is something close to 60% black 30% white 10% other. (Definetly ROUGH estimate, but lets go with that for now.) Should we make it 50-50 or 33%-33%-33% for the players too? Maybe it just so happens that blacks are better players at certain positions than whites. (Sticks neck out and expects to hear "racist" for this.) Maybe it is just that blacks are RECRUITED more than whites at certain positions or scouts take them more 'seriously' as atheltes. Whatever it is, the NFL player racial make-up is NOT at all reflective of our societie's racial make-up. Should the NFL be FORCED to hired more whites (even if they might not be as good at the position...or even if they WERE..does it really matter?) and less blacks just to be "fair"? Of course not.

    This would never happen. Because whites suing for "discrimination" is not p.c. and no white man would even think of filing such a suit because the laws are set up ONLY to protect the rights of "minorities". Discrimination is discrimination no matter WHO is doing it. If a black manager/boss won't hire a QUALIFIED white person SOLELY on the basis of the color of his skin, he is just as wrong as a white manager who does so to a black person. The difference is, the white person has almost no recourse in a court of law and has no collitions, or watchdog groups that will support him.


    (Got off on a rant and kind of off topic, sorry.)

    If I were a "minority" (I use quotes, because this is a VERY ambiguous term these days...i.e. women are considered "minorities" in this culture, yet make up the majority [albiet close] of our population) I would be more concerned about getting "my" people in positions of power in government, industry, commerce, and EDUCATION and NOT sports. Ethnic groups do not truly better themselves through entertainment, they do so through gaining a voice in society and government. Becoming a PART and helping to SHAPE or even RE-DEFINE the system, rather than calling plays in some essentially meaningless game.

    I know some of what I've said in this (much too long) post is un-p.c., but at least I'm honest enough to admit what I believe in. I also would like to re-state that I believe that Jonnhy Cochran, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and people like them (media pigs, who seek THEIR OWN glory/profit and not those they "represent") are parasites that pray on a black community that is in need of someone positive to look up to. Unfortunaly, I believe they are looking in the wrong place, IMO. There are thousands of hard-working decent black persons in many fields who are much better role-models who TRULY want what's best for "their" people IMO.

    BTW, I'd hate Jackson, Sharpton, and Cochran just as much if they were white...in case someone wants to throw the easy "racist" label at me. My resentment and bitterness against those who profit from other's suffering transcends something so petty as skin pigment.
     
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