"Join me and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son. "

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by wookieepotpie, Oct 23, 2004.

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  1. wookieepotpie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    Mods, please lock and redirect as needed.

    In TESB, Vader wanted to replace the Emperor as Sith Master and wanted Luke as his apprentice. Two questions.

    1) Was Vader?s plan for Luke to kill the Emperor? If so, why did he block Luke's attempt in ROTJ? Had the offer simply been rescinded by that point? Had the plan changed? What was the original plan? In Vader?s mind, how exactly were they going to take the Emperor down?

    2) With the emperor out of the way, what kind of Master would Vader have made? How would the galaxy have fared? Would Luke and Anakin/Vader have eventually had the same nasty relationship that the Emperor and Vader had, with each trying to off the other?

    OK, that?s more like nine questions.

    Thanks!!
  2. SW_Holiday_Special Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    star 1
    "Was Vader?s plan for Luke to kill the Emperor? If so, why did he block Luke's attempt in ROTJ?"

    Because he knew that the Emperor could have defended himself & he didn't want to show his intentions (since Palpatine would likely end up killing them both).
  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    1) Was Vader?s plan for Luke to kill the Emperor?
    I believe so, yes.


    If so, why did he block Luke's attempt in ROTJ?
    The ROTJ novel says that Vader believes that if Luke had killed the Emperor at that point, he might not have turned.

    Had the offer simply been rescinded by that point?
    I don't think so, no.
    Had the plan changed?
    No...Vader just didn't want the Emperor dead just yet.

    What was the original plan?
    Luke's sabre in Palpatine's chest.

    In Vader?s mind, how exactly were they going to take the Emperor down? I don't know...turn Luke to the Dark Side relatively peacefully, train him up, then sic him on the Emperor. Presumably with Vader assissting.

    2) With the emperor out of the way, what kind of Master would Vader have made?
    I don't know... the term 'father and son' he uses
    seems to suggest they would have ruled as relative equals, at least in Vader's mind.

    How would the galaxy have fared? I think Vader's love with the Dark Side is the order it can impose, not necessarily ruthless power. I think it may have evolved into a relatively benevolent place to live.


    Would Luke and Anakin/Vader have eventually had the same nasty relationship that the Emperor and Vader had, with each trying to off the other?
    I'm not sure on this...they're father & son, I imagine that would build stronger loyalty than Vader & Palps had. Not to mention they both still have something of the Jedi in them.
  4. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    I don't know... the term 'father and son' he uses
    seems to suggest they would have ruled as relative equals, at least in Vader's mind.


    Father and son implies hierarchal integration, though. I think it's more likely that Vader would've been head honcho with Luke as his acclaimed heir.


    I think Vader's love with the Dark Side is the order it can impose, not necessarily ruthless power. I think it may have evolved into a relatively benevolent place to live.

    I dunno. It depends on how you view Vader. I certainly don't think he was as sadistic as the emperor, and I think that was part of the reason Palpatine fell was because he was so consumed by the dark side.... Vader's very..."just get it done" kind of guy, though that leads to a kind of mercilessness on his part.

    However, one could argue that Vader is only so seemingly more competent and politically acclimate because Luke's influence keeps him from being completely swallowed up by the dark side. There's a significant amount of difference between the cruel, unyielding and unforgiving aura of Vader we see in ESB to the contemplative, firm-but-with-tones-of-psychological-uncertainty Vader we see in ROTJ. Why is he more lenient with the death dealing? I think Luke's existence and resilient light influence stirred something with him. (If you consider the EU canon, than Mara Jade's purpose further supports this idea, as she was sent to assassinate Skywalker because the emperor questioned Vader's intentions for Luke, though I think dialogue in the third movie supplies these concerns plenty already.)

    If Luke were to turn to the dark side, it's possible Vader may be able to then completely deny himself any part of Anakin Skywalker that was left, fulfilled in the knowledge of the dark side's power in Luke's defection. What purpose would he have to repent if the dark side devours even the hero of the alliance? Luke's role in the resurfacing of the Anakin in Vader is not a role to be overlooked easily.



    I'm not sure on this...they're father & son, I imagine that would build stronger loyalty than Vader & Palps had. Not to mention they both still have something of the Jedi in them.

    I'm iffy on this, too. I'd like to think, in such a twisted alternate universe, they would role concurrently without Luke eventually deciding to usurp his father, but, again...see above with my point about the dark side consuming its user if it's left unchecked. It depends on far Luke fell to the dark side. If he came over but retained the reservations we see now and then in Anakin, then he might remain, or if Vader can build a strong enough bond, than maybe...but, given how long they've been apart, it's doubtful. Similarly, text from the novelized ROTJ suggests that if Luke would succumb, he would do so with some pretty daming consequences for all.

    Here's a few selections from the Vader/Luke battle from the ROTJ novels. You make your own interpretation:

    Scene 1:

    [Set up is that Luke has just begun fighting Vader. Temporarily getting the upper hand, he kicks Vader's feet out from under him and knocks Vader down a flight of steps.]

    Luke stood above him, at the tope of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, time time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle in his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all ovther considerations.

    He had the power; the choice was his.

    And the another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.

    It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon, nor did he recoil.

    He took one step forward.



    Scene 1 then goes on to describe how angry and humiliated Vader at the tho
  5. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I actually never thougth of the "Vader planning to kill the Emperor" idea until I started looking online. I very much viewed Vader as being motivated primarily by the fact that he was a father (maybe because that was practically the first thing I learned about SW).

    Thus, when I first heard this line, I always took it to meant that they would serve together as equals, under the Emperor. After all, as I figured it, being #2 and #3 in the Galaxy is still close enough to say "rule."
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