Jon Stewert: There is no more fight between left and right, only extremist and moderates...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jul 17, 2002.

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  1. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    You realize that is impossible, unless teachers all volunteer to work for nothing. I assume you mean education should be 100% government subsidized, but that would mean all taxpayers would be paying for education, not that nobody would be.

    Which is how it's done in Europe, and they DO have free university. They supposedly have better schools than we do from the first grades on.

    The world doesn't owe anyone anything.

    True. But what the world DOES need to do - or at least I thought "live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" meant this was the US govt's position - is try to ensure that people get what they have rightfully earned. Our track record in that department is often poor.
  2. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    what they have rightfully earned

    This is where the problem erupts. Who is to say what one has rightfully earned?
    Ask any college professor who the best group of students are and I will bet you they will say the returning students. Those who have been in the work place, are older than the average student and realize that they want more out of life. On the whole, and this has been my experience, that they are more dedicated than the 18 year old freshmen whose daddy is paying for college who thinks they have rightfully earned a passing grade because they showed up for class everyday.
  3. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    A better point about free education than whether the world "owes" it to anyone is this: the primary reason we have public schools with mandatory attendance is because we don't want to live in a country filled with really ignorant people - yes, even more ignorant than we have now. :D

    Those who have been in the work place, are older than the average student and realize that they want more out of life.

    I agree. I started college at 22. However, it was still the worst mistake of my life - the college took my entire savings, refusing to even consider a loan for the whole tuition amount once they knew I had a savings account. Then it turns out there is nothing you can get a paying job in that I like to do, so aside from some great learning experiences I really couldn't afford, college was a complete waste of my time and money. But I still think waiting until you're at least 20 is a great idea and will help most people get more out of college.

    My point earlier, by the way, is that every time someone says "the world doesn't owe anyone anything" I feel like saying "then the world shouldn't be shocked when people get theirs any way they can". It just stands to reason to me.

    I mean, Columbine was awful and wrong, but it didn't shock me in the slightest. I coudln't see what all the fuss was about, honestly. In my high school, the jocks were allowed to treat the most academically proficient kids any way they saw fit except violently - they stole and burned homework, for example, causing kids to have to spend hours convincing the teacher they HAD done the work, and then spend days redoing it. The principal didn't care - he could barely speak a sentence, he was so ill-educated and just dumb, and he only got the job because he knew somebody in town. But the jocks made the school money through sports, and the academic kids didn't. So the academic kids didn't get what they'd earned, and any attempt to pursue justice was "insubordination", punishable by suspension.

    And everybody knows these things happen. If anyone tells me they hadn't heard of stuff like this before Columbine, and they're more than 18 years old, I will be shocked.
  4. DilatedPeoples Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    How can people be against the general public being well educated? It's for the good of all society that everyone has knowledge, since if there was knowledge, we would live in a much more peaceful, productive society. School certainly isn't the only place to gain knowledge from, but still, how can someone say that they don't care about people being educated??
  5. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Whoa, whoa, when did this change into anyone saying they don't want people to get educated?

    If you think college students don't take their classes seriously now, what do you think would happen if they got them for free?

    As I said, find the teachers who will work for free, and then maybe you're onto something. Otherwise you're asking the already overburdened working-class to contribute even more to the non-working-class.

    For those who find justification for Columbine (and there's lots of them out there), I'm waiting for the day when a "taxpayer" goes berserk and massacres a bunch of welfare recipients. Then, would these people say "well, I can understand it, because workers are taxed too much"?

    The whole concept of "the world doesn't owe anyone a living, but if you don't give it to them anyway they'll get mad and fight back" sounds like extortion to me. It's not some right-wing declaration that says the world's population can't have a free ride, it's just life.
  6. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    If you think college students don't take their classes seriously now, what do you think would happen if they got them for free?

    Ever heard of academic probation and expulsion? If they're getting it for free, then we have a right to expect MORE of them.

    And by your logic, since I took college damn seriously, maybe I deserved not to get hit with out of state fees, not to have to pay for it all myself, and not to be unable to finish because I was more in debt from it than I could possibly hope to make in five years' of working.

    Europe manages to provide free college without unpaid teachers, so your argument there is kind of, no offense, ridiculous.

    As for the "extortion" - that too is just life. And since welfare recipients don't bleed the taxpayers half as much as business scandals - remember the S&L's, which Neil Bush was involved in, that our great-grandchildren will still be paying off? - I'm waiting for some taxpayer to go postal on a business that's getting "bailed out" by tax dollars. Welcome back to the old west, partner.
  7. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Europe is now instituting fees for Universities. And, American Universities tend to be of higher quality (look at the number of students leaving each region to study in the other, as a percentage...you will find many more people come to the States).



    And this is so off-topic I am truly amazed and impressed.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    As Red-Seven noted, this has gone more than just off topic. This is way off the beaten path. Feel free to start a new thread on the current discussion, but this one has run its course.

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