Discussion Joseph Campbell, The Monomyth and the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Darth Chiznuk, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. woj101 Force Ghost

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    star 1
  2. T-R- Chosen One

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    Which quote's, from Lucas, point to Luke as cameo? Or even contradict each other? None. He is consistent in content.

    His only contradictions occur after 1997 when he starts to promote the PT, and those contradictions apply to making the ST, not about its contents.
  3. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
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    Thank you!
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  4. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't give much credence to the things Lucas said 30-odd years ago. The man is known to be capricious. He changes his mind almost as often as he changes flannel shirts.

    But I do give a great deal of credence to the things Lucas said in the Businessweek interview. That is a very recent information, and involves some hard-core legal wrangling. And in that interview, Lucas made it very clear that using his story treatments for the ST was part of the deal.

    But unlike T-R, I don't think the story treatments Lucas sold to Disney are the same ones he had in mind back in the early 80s.
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Mar 9, 2013
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  5. woj101 Force Ghost

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    Consistently loose and vague, yes. I'll give you that there don't appear to be any direct quotes from Lucas about Hamill as a cameo in ST, but how can you say he's consistent on content when he says:

    and then later says:

    And...

    Whenever questioned about the saga as a whole Lucas rambled. I don't doubt that he sat down in the early 70s and wrote a great big draft of the Starkiller adventures, but when he talks about chopping that up into 9 or 12 chapters, he's really talking about the logistics of making 20hrs of material into one film. Those Starkiller adventures are only loosely connected to what he's ultimately produced with Episodes 1-6. Vader as Luke's father. Leia as Luke's sister. Yoda as a small swamp dweller. All examples of afterthoughts.

    This Big Breakfast interview is a taste of what George may have had planned for the PT. But the PT always had potential due to the Ep.4 script. The end to Ep. 6 is so final and leaves no hint of any afterstory. When ANH was a success GL was riding the crest of a wave as 'the master storyteller' and, understandably, he didn't resist it. ANH had an obvious backstory he could exploit, and clearly he liked the idea of a 9 film saga. But you're pinning your flag to GL saying the ST is based on the character that survives the OT, but that is virtually meaningless. What else could he have said? That it was based on a character that didn't survive the OT? That it was based on an entirely unrelated set of characters?

    When it comes to someone who contradicts themselves, I really don't care when the contradiction was or what it was about, my assessment of them as a reliable source is immediately and permanently effected, particularly when they can be as woeful as this.

    When the boy who cried wolf starts shouting about fire, I'm happy to wait for the smoke detectors.
    Last edited by woj101, Mar 10, 2013
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  6. T-R- Chosen One

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    It's simple. His quotes from 1980-1997 are gold and reflect what he had planned for a ST. His quotes from 1997-2010 is him trying to provide an excuse why there wouldn't be a ST as he promised for 17 years and also to promote the PT during the 1997-2005 timeframe.

    The fact that he could initiate the go ahead with a ST so quickly shows that he already had things in place for a ST, supporting his words from 1980-1997.

    Not true. The Rebels won but haven't rebuiltthe Republic. Luke just became a Jedi andhasn't passed on his knowledge. Lucas descriptions of the ST give you plenty of story.
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  7. T-R- Chosen One

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    The fact that Lucas was going to make the ST regardless of sale to Disney and made this as part of the deal, as well as only allowing 3 Disney reps to read the treatments, furter solidifies my belief that he is sticking to his story from 1980 on.

    It shows me that neither he nor Disney are "targeting" the younger audience to make money as some people said in this thread. It shows me that he was/is going to make his movies, with his storyline, and his main character regardless of marketing demographics.
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  8. woj101 Force Ghost

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    How can this be asserted as fact? Particularly given that in the Business Week interview GL talks about having to make his company more attractive in order to maximise revenue from the sale (what's the best way to do that? Let the buyer make some more SW movies), and if you watch the video on the first page of the Business Week story, around the 47 second mark it's suggested that talks to sell LFL were initiated before he went away to work on the ST so that he had something to offer Iger. If he's giving them what he had in 1980 why has this come up?

    I don't see how you've inferred this from what's been said. But the very fact you have inferred this suggests the LFL/disney spin has effectively secured your conviction that the ST won't disappoint, which is the very thing I would wager they are trying to do at this stage of the game - protect the brand, maintain what existing fanbase they can to maximise the hype for release time. Don't you think they would have discussed what to tell the public about the deal? It's a $4billion deal - they do think about this stuff you know. What sounds better: George Lucas, the creator of the Star Wars universe, has handed his story over to Disney to bring to the big screen; or, Disney has bought the Star Wars franchise and is going to make their own ST?

    Now I'm not saying GL hasn't handed treatments over to Disney, or that Disney aren't going to stick to them. All I'm saying is that I'm not prepared to trust what I'm being told by the media and a massive corporation when it's clearly in their interests to talk the deal up.
    - Oh goodie, I can't wait to see that on the big screen [face_tee_hee]


    Why did he need an excuse?
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  9. kataja Force Ghost

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    May 4, 2007
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    I haven't this discussion closely, nor will I be able to, but my small five cent remark is that
    isn't actually contradicting
    It's perfectly possible to have a loose (=etheral) story in your head where you may even know start and end and scenes in the middle - but still have nothing written and still have the feeling you have to start from scratch. I sit second year and fight with a sequel to my fanfic of mine - and yet I had the character arch for both main protagonists clear in my head from the start. It's how to make that play with the "background" that continues to trick me - and how to connect the different scenarios I know need to happen in order to make the characters move from one insight to another.
  10. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I've been meaning to revive this thread but haven't gotten around to it until now.

    I was thinking about how the PT and the OT explored different angles of the hero's journey with Luke being more of a traditional hero and Anakin obviously being a tragic hero so I wonder if the ST will explore a new angle. Luke and Anakin both had to discover their powers and I've always maintained that the new hero should as well but I had a thought that perhaps the ST will explore the idea of a hero who has always had their powers and is arrogant so they must be humbled and learn to respect their powers and not take them for granted. I don't know how that would work within the structure of the hero's journey but it was just an idea I had.
  11. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

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    That's not necessarily true. This year I wrote a novel I started working on in 1987. I had no intention of ever finishing it. Then inspiration struck and I wrote it in 5 months. Creativity's a funny thing, unpredictable. GL probably had many thoughts about 7-9 over the years. He even wrote an outline in the 80's which was read by his biographer Dale Pollock. He probably has enough material knocking around in his head & in notes to make 20 more SW movies.
  12. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
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    I don't want to get into a theological debate here, but to say that the ''Genesis'' is somehow wrong is looking at it from the view that science has outdated mythology/religion. It hasn't. If anything, they don't contradict. They simply look at things from a different point of view. And no, God DIDN'T create the Earth in six days- It's all figurative language, follks.

    As far as Campbell goes: I've read The Power of Myth and I am currently halfway through Hero. If anything, it's very possible that the heroes journey will feature prominently like it did in the previous 2 trilogies. However, the approach should be different. if the protagonist is a trained Jedi, then his journey will have to be different from the one of Luke and Anakin-which involved becoming a Jedi.
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  13. EHT New Films Manager

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    Let's not get into religious debates here... thanks.
  14. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Yep, that's what I was getting at above. It's probably likely that our new protagonist will have a very different childhood than both Luke and Anakin. They had a rather rough upbringing on a desert world and then they learned they were special and had powers. But how will it be different for a protagonist who grew up knowing they were different and knowing they were special? Would they reject that legacy out of insecurity or would they be arrogant and take those powers for granted? There are many ways the story can explore this and it's fun to think about.
  15. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
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    If Luke = Hero Fulfillment, Anakin = Hero Redemption, ST Heroine(?) = Hero Actualization? Although, this is already Luke.

    Great thread, man. I have no idea. Although, I think if the Hero is female, with which everyone expects, and with which I would like to see, I think that presents some unique angles thus far unexplored in the SW Film Universe. I'm not counting Ahsoka, here. Although, Ahsoka would be a great reference to questions for our new heroine. She may be instructive.

    Luke did not, for the most part of the OT, have any erotic love dimension within his story arc. Han and Leia occupied that space. I think Ahsoka and even Obi-Wan's stories in CW explored this a bit. It could be something unique to this female lead.

    This is a worthwhile discussion, what will our protagonist face? Will it be much different than the Hero's call, denial, transformation and fulfillment? Will there be any tragedy, love or mortal, or both? What decisions and sacrifices will the protagonist face. Undoubtedly, there will be doubt, fear, failure but how will these be figuratively different in the ST.

    Like the antagonist, I only have opinions and the backstory. Same with the protagonist.
  16. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
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    Monomyth theories don't strictly lay out the pattern necessary for ALL myths; more often they're lists of tropes common among epic myths. The original film draws most specifically on the Hero with a Thousand Faces, but the rest of the Star Wars saga more or less picks and chooses whatever mythic theoretical tool it needs to get the job done. Almost every Star Wars movie uses en media res, the idea that the story is begins in the middle of a grander scope of events - either after a 'dark age long ago' or in the midst of such a 'dark age'. I imagine that Episode VII would apply the former of the two flavors. I've also been suspecting that we will get a strong central heroine, so it's possible we're going to see Star Wars carve out of "Heroine's Journey" in the Sequel Trilogy. I've also speculated the ST may go with a multiheroic approach, like Seven Samurai or The Avengers (or Phantom Menace for that matter). In general, it would be great to see the Sequel Trilogy innovate a new shape of storytelling rather than rely solely on established tropes.
  17. StoneRiver Force Ghost

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    Don't mean to derail, but I want to add to the GL contradiction stuff said above.

    To me GL has said his plans, got fed up with it personally so changed his plans (ended it with the OT), became inspired again so went back to his original plan (made the PT), got fed up with it personally so changed his plans (tragedy of Darth Vader), became inspired again so went back to his original plan (sold the ST).

    What I'm trying to say is yes, he has contradicted himself and changed his mind many times, but we always seem to end up back where he started with his original plan.
  18. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

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    Nothing ever pans out the way one first envisions it, George Lucas notwithstanding.
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  19. StoneRiver Force Ghost

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    Not "exactly", no. But that wasn't really my point.

    Right at the start - 9 films, and 1 all about wookies, 1 all about droids and something else, maybe 12 films in total
    Right now - 9 films, and spin-offs
  20. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

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    I think it's just the logical progression of the original ideas. But I think we're actually on the same page here.
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  21. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

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    Jun 30, 2003
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    The contradictions of George Lucas and what he said when have absolutely NOTHING to do with Joseph Campbell's concept of the monomyth and what that would mean for the ST. If you want to discuss what G-Walt knew and when he knew it, there surely has to be another thread for it. It may have been relevant to this discussion at some point, but now it's just derailing this thread into more of the same old nonsense. Can't we have a thread that aims higher for a change? Or at least have one that stays on point?
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  22. EHT New Films Manager

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    ... and please stay on topic.
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  23. Sith-Mullet Force Ghost

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    Let's just hope that the new filmmakers at the helm can draw from the same influences as George Lucas, and be successful at it.
  24. Chained Prometheus Jedi Grand Master

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    I think this is a great theory and could very well be accurate. However, I also feel that perhaps the new hero's boon could be identity.

    The legacy of Anakin Skywalker played a great part in Luke's journey, and I can only imagine Anakin's grandchild(ren) would have a more amplified version of that. After all, not only would they be the descendant(s) of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, but they would also have the legacy of their parents to deal with as well. Whether or not the protagonist is the child of Luke or of Han and Leia, they still have the entire trio's accomplishments looming over them alongside the feats of Anakin and evils of Vader.

    So how would this hero be able to break free of the legacy they've inherited? By realizing their own identity. That being said, I could see identity and forgiveness going hand-in-hand here and both could as the ultimate boon for our new hero.
  25. darthtuttle Force Ghost

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    Apr 2, 2004
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    Here's what I'm wondering. The hero has the meeting with the godess, basically, forming a close relationship with a female character. So what will this phase look like for a female protagonist? The ST will likely have a female protagonist.