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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Phx Joss Whedon Rules! (ie The Buffy and Angel Thread)

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by Princess_Skywalker_, Jul 25, 2003.

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  1. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    Yeah, "Hush" and "Once More With Feeling" are probably my two favorite episodes of alltime.

    On another note I wish they had left Willow's hair white after the last episode. That would have been cool.
     
  2. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    The fact that the emmys screwed Joss over really bugs me. I mean a musical episode and an episode where no one talks...That's creativity! Not to mention the fact that they were done so well. Pft. What do those idiots know anyways. :p

    EDIT:
    HA! [face_laugh] idiots as in the voters, not as in S.A. -you're NEW name :p
     
  3. blackfeather

    blackfeather Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2002
    ok, i'll bite. what did his high & mighty say about the faith spinoff & xander not showing for the panel?
     
  4. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    you have to wait till I visit, I have it on video...that and a BUNCH more stuff that he said during the panel you NON Buffy fans missed :p

    The REAL fan (me) was there taping it! :D
    Seriously though, it was pretty good. Just Joss and a bunch of his CRAZY devoted followers. I can't even imagine what it must be like to work with him. SOOOO envious! :p
     
  5. Duguay

    Duguay Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2002
    My favorite stuff is from Fear, Itself:

    That's Gacknar? (the fear demon)

    Buffy's fighting to stop herself from sniggering.

    Willow: He's so cute!

    Xander: [cutsey voice] Who's the little fear demon? C'mon! Who's the little fear demon!

    Giles: Xander! Don't taunt the fear demon.

    Xander: Why, can he still hurt me?

    Giles: No, it's just...tacky.
     
  6. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Just checked my email:

    Dear Angel fans,
    Every other week this summer, check the Angel Chronicles for the exclusive clip of the week. Only you'll see 'em... and this week, you get TWO! Hear what Joss Whedon has to say about Angel's future, and see Fred having a bit of a moment.

    So apparently if you want to know more nitty gritty, sign up off the WB site for the Angel newsletter...assuming you don't already subscribe to it! :D
     
  7. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    Blackfeather posed the question earlier about Willow being bi as opposed to gay, so here are my thoughts on the topic.

    After her relationship with Oz and the brief fling with Xander Willow has consistently identified herself as being gay - "That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay." (To Buffy in 'Dopplegangland') "Hello, gay now!" (To Anya in 'Triangle') "A little confused. I mean, I'm ... all sweaty ... and trapped, no memory, hiding in a pipe from a vampire... And I think I'm kinda gay" (To Dawn in 'Tabula Rasa').

    So, it's apparent that Willow identifies herself as being gay and her history of relationships backs that up, eg. she hasn't dated a guy since she started going out with Tara. Yes, she still had feelings for Oz, but it's natural to have some lingering feelings after having the kind of relationship they had. And it's important to note that she still chose Tara in the end. That shows that she's made the transition from going out with Oz and being not gay to falling for Tara and being gay. I think it was Chekov who said that if you're going to show a gun in the first act then the gun must be used by the third act. If they were going to make Willow bi then she would have been shown dating a guy at some point after she and Tara broke up instead of hanging out with that rat Amy.
     
  8. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    I disagree. But then I also don't think people need to have labels. I personally think Willow didn't choose men or women, I think she was one of those people that just fell in love with whomever she fell in love with.

    Besides she was serious with Oz and loved him. Just because she happened to only be in relationships with women later doesn't mean that at the time, she wasn't totally committed to Oz. So if you HAD to label her. She would be bi but apparently perfers women overall.

    I think it's more about the actual person for her. She never had flings, she was always in serious relationships.

    And as for the evil willow stuff...well she was a vamp :p
    And the entire quote goes like this:

    Giles: "It's extraordinary."

    Willow: "It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil, and skanky. And I think I'm kind of gay."

    Buffy: "Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was."

    Angel: "Well, actually... That's a good point."


    And don't forget the major thing she had for Xander in all the begining eps. Puppy love yes, but she did have a major thing for him.

     
  9. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    No, I don't think people necessarily need labels either, but the thing is all the characters on the show identified Willow with that label. More importantly Willow identified herself with that label. And even under magical persuasion she held true to that; for example in the episode "Him" when RJ, one of the football players at Sunnydale High used his magical jacket to make women fall for him Willow wanted to use her own magic to turn him into a female.


    WILLOW: Yeah, well I have skills. I can prove my love with magic.

    ANYA: Yeah, right. What're you gonna do?use magic to make him into a girl? (realizes Willow's gonna do it) Damn.


    As for Xander yes, she has always been in love with him and still is. But that love has changed over the seasons. In the first few seasons she wanted him as a boyfriend up until their aforementioned fling. Now I can't imagine her loving him as anything more than a brother.
     
  10. Mara Jade Emperor's Hand

    Mara Jade Emperor's Hand Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 1999
    Okay, I was gonna stay out of this, but...

    As IA pointed out, Willow identifies as a gay woman. Obviously this is how she sees herself. I think that she has much more of a right to label herself than anyone else.

    It is not impossible for gay people to have relationships with people of the opposite sex before they realize that they are gay. Sexuality is a fluid thing, especially for women, and feelings change. Yes, she was infatuated with Xander. Yes, she loved Oz. But she has also made it quite clear that she is no longer interested in men. Remember the episode with RJ, the boy with the varsity jacket that made all the girls fall in love with him? Willow tried to turn him into a girl. Even under the influence of a love spell, Willow did not want to be with a man.

    I know a number of people who identify as gay who were involved in heterosexual relationships before realizing their feelings. These people are not bisexual. They identify as gay, therefore, it would be disrespectful to confer upon them a label with which they are not comfortable.

    Willow may only be a television character, but on the show, she made it quite clear that she considered herself gay, not bisexual. Therefore, I give her the same respect I would give one of my friends in honoring her self-identification rather than questioning it.

    Perhaps I am a little vehement when it comes to this issue, but I've had some experiences with people trying to assign labels on other people. In my eyes, the only labels that are valid are the ones that people give themselves, if they choose to give themselves labels at all -- which Willow has.
     
  11. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    On the Xander thing, no I don't think she felt the same way about him in later seasons. That's why I said in the earlier eps she had "puppy love" for him. It was definately a brother/sister thing (but not a Luke and Leia thing) later on. :p

    As for the label thing, I dunno. I think it's just easier for them to say Willow is gay rather than try and explain it all out as to why she would be attracted to guys, then girls, etc. I think being gay is an easier concept for people to grasp then being bi. But I still think Willow fell in love with the people she did for who they were as people, not their gender. In my recollection of the eps, it seemed like she herself was struggling to understand what was happening. Kinda like, oh gee I must be gay. I remember thinking it was kinda weird at the time the way they were explaining that. It would have made more sense to me for Willow to focus on the fact that she and Tara had become very close and fell in love. Not just a gay/straight thing.

    And in regards to Amy the rat, I don't remember her being gay when she was first on...But then again, they may have added that in to help the story later. I have a bunch of the Buffy episode guide books packed away in storage somewhere. I'll have to dig them out and re-read them. I'd WATCH the eps themselves but alas no FX. damn cable company. :p pft.

    EDIT:
    Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and this is mine. It's a tv show no more no less. And it's not really Willow's opinion of herself considering she is a character that other people are writing. I'd be interested to know Alyson's viewpoint on it though. That would be interesting.

    I'm also sure many people can relate to these issues as most people I know are friends with people that are gay or bi. I have known people as well that had relationships (especially in high school) with members of the opposite sex before they came out of the closet so to speak. I also know people that really don't have a preference but go on feelings. To me it doesn't matter. That is their choice. I look at it kinda the same way I feel about attraction. I have a "type" sort of, that I am most attracted to. That does not mean I have not dated guys COMPLETELY and totally outside that range. I am a person that believes in going with your feelings. I fall for whomever I fall for. If they don't fit the "mold", then they don't. It's about what kind of person they are. I just see a lot of that in Willow and I always liked that idea. That she was open and followed her heart.

     
  12. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    On a happy note, the info about Cordy's role on Angel...I found a link that says some of the things Joss did at Con...

    Cordy




     
  13. JaiSin_Tam

    JaiSin_Tam Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2003
    I was sorry to see Buffy go, but all good stories do have to end, 'else new stories can't be born...

    I am VERY happy to hear that Firefly is coming out on DVD and that a movie about the show is in the works.

    - Jai-Sin Tam, Jedi Padawan in a Browncoat.

    ;-)
     
  14. JaiSin_Tam

    JaiSin_Tam Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2003
    I am VERY happy to hear that Firefly is coming out on DVD and that a movie about the show is in the works.

    I am so happy, I had to say it twice!

    - Jai-Sin Tam, Jedi Padawan in a Browncoat.

    ;-)
     
  15. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2002
    From the Buffy Site:
    Are you satisfied with the way the end of BUFFY played out?
    No, I wish there were more new episodes. 72.31%
    Yes, everything came full circle. 13.87%
    Kinda, it's hard to say. 13.82%
    Interesting....

    ALSO I found a recent interview with Joss that brought up some of the stuff you guys missed during his panel at Con....Well except for the SPANKING?!?! part! :eek: :p

    How?s your summer going? It?s a lot like winter. It?s work. I just started shooting Angel today.
    But not as much work as before though. No, no. Only one show.

    What was today?s shoot like? Good day. There was a lot of talk about spanking. I?m not kidding. Lotta spanking.

    So this will be more of an S&M influenced season? No, there was just the one scene with the spanking.

    What do you think of the fan rumor about Spike coming back as the first male slayer? That would never happen. There will never be a male slayer. That would simply never happen.
    How will you bring Spike into the mix? I?ve had every scenario thrown at me. All I can say about it is that it?s going to shake everything up because he?s Spike, that?s what he does.
    Will more Buffy cast members to come on? Oh yeah. We think Sarah will be doing shows in sweeps if everything works out. And we sort of have our pick. We want them all. We just got to pay to fit ?em in.
    What about Alyson? That would be nice. I?m a fan.
    Do you have story plans for how they?d work in? Our plan is for them to say they?d work in and then to think of a story. We have certain things on hold, ideas for a few of them, but we really wait until they give us the nod and then we go to town. Because if you spend a lot of time thinking of a story and then they suddenly can?t, you?re occasionally boned.
    What is the theme for this season of Angel? The theme of this season is corruption because they?ve taken over Wolfram and Hart. The theme is can we do good in an evil world or will we just become tainted by it?
    Is Stephanie Romanov coming back? We?re not sure. We sort of wrapped up the character but we love the actress and we want to have her back if her schedule permits and we can afford it, but she?s not the main voice for Wolfram and Hart anymore. There?s going to be a new character.
    Did you find Buffy fans and critics more harsh on season six or season seven? You know, people always hate the current season for one reason or another. But at the end of the day, season six took a lot of hits. I think season seven probably came out a little ahead. I think season four took a lot of hits which is one of my favorites. Inevitably, everybody has a favorite. People who are really depressing like season six as much as I did.
    Was the Buffy finale something you had planned for several years? No, no. About a year. At the beginning of the year, I thought okay, I know I?m leaving. But it wasn?t anything like at the beginning that I knew I was going to do that. It came out of Buffy?s separateness from the other characters that I decided that?s what we need to address.
    How would you explain the message to fans who didn?t understand season seven? Watch it again when it comes out on DVD. I think not understanding it would be the worst because it?s almost didactic in its clarity.
    Do you have any future DVD plans? After we do season seven, not so much.
    Are you developing any non-genre shows? Non genres, you mean like them dramas? Them procedurals? Anything that doesn?t have some element of the bizarre in it, tends to put me to sleep, or I just don?t know how to do it. I?m not developing anything this second. I?m still sort of recovering and spending my time trying to get Firefly made into a movie knock on wood. I will be at some point this year, but whatever I do, I?ll be pretty shocked if it isn?t a genre show.

    ---damn. Just one ep of it?? And I was SO looking forward to the S&M season. :p

    "Peop
     
  16. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    Any word on the all-naked, all-gay episode?
     
  17. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2002
    hmm... all naked...yeah...I think I might tune in for an all naked Angel and Spike show...

    Then we can finally see who Buffy REALLY favored :p [face_devil]
     
  18. sideshow212

    sideshow212 Former RSA star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 3, 2002
    watch it guys... ;)
     
  19. blackfeather

    blackfeather Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Oct 6, 2002
    i just remembered that scene in the finale where buffy walks by spike's punching bag, and there's a doodle of angel's face w/the huuuuge forehead taped to it. heh. mr. forehead. heee.

    two by two, hands of blue.
     
  20. Kirana_T

    Kirana_T Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2002
    just remembered that scene in the finale where buffy walks by spike's punching bag, and there's a doodle of angel's face w/the huuuuge forehead taped to it. heh. mr. forehead. heee.

    Yeah, that was great. I always loved those little details. :D

    Scariest Buffy villians: the Gentlemen, from Hush: extra, super creepy



     
  21. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2002
    yeah none of the other villians scared me...they were usually funny

    but the Gentlemen were wig me out MAJOR creepy....ewww!

    that was the scariest show by far....it was a nice change of pace though
     
  22. jawajames

    jawajames Former RSA // stawars.com contributor star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2002
    the gentlemen of hush were pretty darn creepy...

    btw, i went to the eliza dushku panel on sunday at con.. her new show has potential.. her character is a little more cerebral, a little less butt-kicky. the show is about a recent college grad, Tru, who hears from the recently dead, and then relives that day in order to save that person from dying, meanwhile her relationship with her sister and brother also needs saving as they have gone separated ways after the murder of Tru's mother when Tru was 10.
    other characters: her older sister (corporate ladder climber on crack), brother (gambling habit), her former track coach and lover, her boss at the morgue, her male friend from college who designs video games and looks stuff up on the internet for her (and has a crush on her), and her female friend from college, possibly her dead mom.
    think of it as Run Lola Run + Amazing Race + Early Edition.

    how does she get around the city? running..

    also at con, i got to meet Andy Hallet (Lorn).
     
  23. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2002
    :_| Ok. I'm so jealous. :p
    Damn!!
     
  24. MexChewie

    MexChewie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2002
    I arrived and got on the Buffy bandwagon pretty late. It was Season Six when i started.

    What really got me hooked was the final scene in "After Life." It was so poignant and a bit depressing to me. I loved it!
     
  25. Princess_Skywalker_

    Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2002
    Chewie I didn't know you were a buffy fan! Cool. 80's and Buffy. :D Excellent taste. Did you go back and watch all the previous seasons? And what do you think about Angel? Do you watch it too? Can't wait for Spike to be on!

     
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