Journal of the Whills - In-Depth Discussion

Searched for a Journal of the Whills thread but there are scattered and un-focused threads on the subject, thought it might be a good idea to have one place to talk about this stuff. The recent Josh spoilers brought this subject back with this:

There is another Darth ... one we've never heard of before in the Star Wars to my knowledge. How could he tie into the film? If they doesn't appear in person, perhaps the character is part of the backstory? And on a related note, did you know the Journal of the Whills is in Episode III?

-DARTH PLAGUEIS- there are scores of legends about this Sith. But was he was powerful enought to cheat death? Certainly he could at least use the power of the Force to lengthen his life.

****** of the Whills will also be mentioned, and ******** of the Whills will be mentioned, too.

Here another from Josh that may be related:

Can you give any little nugget of information on the disappearing Jedi/Jedi spirit issue?

Totally explained in Episode III. Palpatine tells the whole story about Darth Plagueis during the ballet scene."

Excerpts from 'Josh the Facts'

And if there are any doubts as to Josh's inside info, the OS confirmed it via Pablo:

Will the old concept of "The Journal of the Whills" be part of RotS?

Hmmm... it hasn't entirely been forgotten.

It's probably important to go back and look at just what the 'Journal of the Whills' originally was. A good article on the OS explains this, as well as an excpert from The Annotated Screenplays:

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[image=http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/bts/article/f20000530/img/front.jpg]

At the bottom of the Prologue to A New Hope's novelization is the tantalizing attribution: "From the First Saga, The Journal of the Whills."

This cryptic citation has caused much confusion over the years. The Journal is not a massive tome with a maddeningly low print run that is eluding collectors. Rather, it is a fictitious work from which the Star Wars stories are culled.

The storyline of the entire Star Wars saga has never been printed. It exists in the mind of George Lucas, and in his binders of notes and story treatments.

[link=http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/bts/article/f20000530/indexp2.html]Excerpt from The Urban Legends of Star Wars May 30, 2000[/link] [hr][/blockquote] [blockquote][hr]It all began in 1973 when Lucas sat down and wrote a forty-page outline entitled "Journal of the Whills" about "Mace Windy, a revered Jedi Bendu of Ophuchi," as told by "C.J. Thorpe, Padawaan learner of the famed Jedi."

Following the outline was a list of characters, and among them were some names that survived the different drafts of the story: General Luke Skywalker, See-Threepio and Artoo Deetoo, two workmen, General Vader, Han Solo, Chewbacca, a Wookie prince, and Bail Antilles, a trader. There was also a list of planets: Aquilae, a desert planet; Yavin, a jungle planet; Ophuchi, a cloud planet; and Alderaan, a city planet. In compiling this information and these background details, Lucas created a reference book he called "Journal of the Whills," which eventually became the starting point for the Star Wars saga.

[i]- Excerpt from The Annotated Screenplays - viii Introduction[/i][hr][/blockquote] [blockquote][hr]Partial handwritten outline entitled "Journal of the Whills" (no date)

[i]- Excerpt from The Annotated Screenplays - Sources listed for ANH[/i][hr][/blockquote]

Here's what Lucas has said on the subject:

[blockquote][hr]When asked what the "Journal of the Whills" was all about:

[i][b]I'm not sure I can explain that. It's where the STAR WARS saga came from; it was a larger [chronicle] that I had been working on, of which STAR WARS was just a piece.[/b] - [link=http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/features/lucasquote.htm]George Lucas STARLOG 1987[/link][/i][hr][/blockquote] [blockquote][hr][b][i]"Originally, I

 

very intersting. thanks! ive been looking for some info on this subject to see what all the hoopla is all about and it is intersting.

 

There was a great thread going today on this subject that had GREAT new interesting spoilers. It must have been deleted because it is now gone. Topic starter was a new guy called THEGENERAL or something.

 

That guy was full of baloney, once he mentioned the Dagabah cave the jig was up.

 

I think people misunderstood what he said about the cave. He said Anakins yellow eyes was a dream like sequence for Anakin, similar to luke in the cave. This was not an explaination of THE CAVE.

 

Even if the guy was full of ****, he had some awesome idea's that made sense and started some great discussion. Is that not the fun of this forum? Why would it be deleted?

 

Great thread Snake. Glad to see you back. We've missed you.

I'm thinking the "Sith Parchment' rumored to be found by Yoda has been replaced if it ever was, by the Journal of the Whills references by Yoda as well as the Darth Plagueis refernces by Palpatine to his bodyguard during the show. So that scene may be in there, but it sounds likely that everything was tied up by dialogue between characters which makes alot more sense story wise than Yoda just happening to supposedly find parts of the prohpecy on a parchment on the Wookie world of Kashykkk.

That said, with the steady rumour of who helped Lucas doctor this with his golden pen, it certainly makes more sense now.

I am excited to see how this plays out. There is alot of flavor in that old work, that may help inject some juiciness to a PT trilogy that many have argued so far has been devoid of the "life" that the OT carried on it's own.

DC

 

Thanks for starting a single thread on the Whills. Perhaps a mod can make it official?

I think it may surface as a combination of history book, code book and "spell book" - like the Book of the Dead in "Evil Dead."

On the surface, it's a history - in my mind, probably of the Jedi themselves - and documents the rise and conflict of the Sith. However, to the trained reader, it will reveal dark secrets. Including means to interpret the prophecy as well as methods of forgotten Jedi arts.

It has most likely been forgotten in the Archives and Yoda goes to it as a "last resort" - when he needs to fit in the missing pieces to the puzzle.

 

Speaking of whills...has anyone ever theorized that Yoda is a 'whill'? I mean no one knows what species he is and unless I'm mistaken no one knows what a whill is...

 

People have suggested that Yoda could be a Whill, but there is nothing to support the theory. Could be, though.

 

Excellent thread.

Most of the excert from ANH has been true up to now, but the only thing that doesnt seem to fit is this:


Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.



Its the bit about him being controlled. If anything, he controls the assistants etc.

I think that a lot of what GL has in his notes, or head over the years has been changed over the years, so it will be very interesting to see what actually makes it into the movie.

 

It will be interesting to see how significant it really is in the scheme of things as far as the plot. Maybe it's THE McGuffin of RotS, or perhaps it's just a passing reference. The opera scene would be high on my list as far as scenes that could include references to the Journal, especially when you hear PH talk about it:

Add Ian McDiarmid as the centerpiece of the scene, and you have one of Episode III's most compelling and eye-opening exchanges, one that I predict will become a source of endless fan debates regarding interpretation and implications.

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/SnakePlisken/ani-palp-opera.jpg]

It would also tie into what Josh said about it being explained there, where Palpatine puts on the dark side seduction big time offering a way to cheat death, perhaps via the Journal.

EDIT: I just noticed something about this:

"And in time of greatest despair there shall come a savior and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUN" ("Journal of the Whills," 3:12)

The 'episode' marking is three(!), I guess 12 is the chapter or verse.

 

Further insight on the Whills and Yoda can be found courtesy of Pablo in the new Insider (page 55):

He said the only thing that GL will say about Yoda's species, background, etc. is that he is a frog and leave it at that.

A Quote: "The Whills, on the other hand, are not a fan concoction. They too are nebulous and mysterious entities, but they've been found mentioned in the earliest Star Wars scripts. The whole saga is said to be taken from the Journal of the Whills. But ultimately that strange attribution is just meant to suggest that the Star Wars saga has been around for eons and has been adapted and interpreted from earlier works. There is no 'real' Journal of the Whills - George Lucass added that to spice things up a bit. It's still too early to say just who or what the Whills really are but we can say definitively that Yoda is not one of them."

To me, this "too early" quote hints that the Whills, along with the Journal, will be touched upon in ROTS.

 

Check out this old spy report:

You heard the spoiler that Yoda discovers that if you kill the master the apprentice will fall, right? It isn't that whenever you kill a master the apprentice dies no matter what. Rather what Yoda learns on Kashykk, apparently, is that the prophecy states that the Dark Lord of the Sith will be defeated by the Chosen One, and when he is defeated his apprentice too shall fall.

Of course this is exactly what happens. Vader kills Sidious, but in so doing is also killed, thus bringing balance to the force.

I can't find the original report on this that it is refering to. Can anyone find it? I can't help but think that what Yoda discovers and reads is called ******* of the Whills. That could be where he reads about this profecy!

 

Great thread, Snake. Just came across it!

Is the JotW a Jedi journal, a Sith journal, or neither - just a Journal about the Force, its Dark and Light sides? Was it written before there were Jedi and Sith? Could both the Jedi AND the Sith look upon the Journal as their one holy book?

I wonder if Palpatine comes to the Temple after Vader's raid to look for the Journal and Yoda beats him to it? Is that part of Yoda's victory, escaping with the Journal and not letting Palpatine have it?

I also feel that the JotW will tie up all the mysterious allusions of the PT neatly. It will tie up balance, the prophecy, retention of identity after death, the Force vergeance. It is quite likely that Yoda and Obi-Wan will chat about it. Is this also where we find out about Darth Plagueus' abilities and how Qui-Gon was able to retain identity partly?

"And in time of greatest despair there shall come a savior and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUN" ("Journal of the Whills," 3:12)

The 'episode' marking is three(!), I guess 12 is the chapter or verse.

Now THAT is very interesting! I thought the time of GREATEST DESPAIR was RotJ, No. 6, when Palpatine is about to kill Luke and eliminate the Jedi COMPLETELY! Certainly, there is nothing in RotS to suggest that Anakin is at all behaving like the Chosen One then!

 

"And in time of greatest despair there shall come a savior and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUN" ("Journal of the Whills," 3:12)


That is really cool. I never know that this quote was supposed to be taken from the Journal of the Whills.

So it looks like the Journal of the Whills was a set of stories framed by Lucas, then the name and stories went into Star Wars.

It would be cool if Yoda was to make it a point to bring the Journal of the Whills with him when he is rescued or when he escapes from Coruscant?

How about this....What if Lucas is trying to set up another saga which is a partial (DARE I SAY) Star Wars sort of Spin-off. By this I mean saga with no Force, but something new from the original journal of the whills that he penned out.

 

<<It all began in 1973 when Lucas sat down and wrote a forty-page outline entitled "Journal of the Whills" about "Mace Windy, a revered Jedi Bendu of Ophuchi," as told by "C.J. Thorpe, Padawaan learner of the famed Jedi."

Following the outline was a list of characters, and among them were some names that survived the different drafts of the story: General Luke Skywalker, See-Threepio and Artoo Deetoo, two workmen, General Vader, Han Solo, Chewbacca, a Wookie prince, and Bail Antilles, a trader. There was also a list of planets: Aquilae, a desert planet; Yavin, a jungle planet; Ophuchi, a cloud planet; and Alderaan, a city planet. In compiling this information and these background details, Lucas created a reference book he called "Journal of the Whills," which eventually became the starting point for the Star Wars saga.

- Excerpt from The Annotated Screenplays - viii Introduction>>



If you go by this, then we know that this was the Starwars saga in it's infancy. So maybe Lucas is referring to the 'Journal of the Whills' to touch on the infancy of the Force.
The beginning as it were. Some sort of cryptic or written journal along the lines of the Bible.
The old Jedi religion at it's birth. That would be cool to have some more mystical aspects of the Force revealed.

 

This thread rocks.

 

WOW!!!!

Snake excellent job, pal. Incredible.


Someone above said that perhaps both the Jedi and the Sith use this journal/bible of the whills.... THAT is controversy! It would show how linear Jedi and Sith can be when looked at "from a certain point of view."

Also, the "Son of Suns" quote? Beautiful! IMO, this could very well be our clincher. As PH and GL haven't really let out too much specific information about the journal itself, maybe this idea of Palpatine explaining the Darth Plagueis has a chance. Maybe this Plagueis guy is the one who wrote the Journal? The main point is that somehow Yoda finds out the rest of the Chosen One prophesy, that he will indeed bring balance to the Force, but with great cost. (Think LotR Two Towers, when he hear that scary Galadriel voice over The Ring will claim his life, you know that... maybe a weird false foreshadow or something)

The Journal may be more than what we know once Yoda has this realization of the prophesy itself. Has anyone confirmed whether Yoda talks to Ben about the Journal BEFORE or AFTER this prophetic realization.... I dunno! Whatever.

 

I just wanted to say thanks to SnakePlisken for this thread. It was quite the interesting read!

L8r

 

[b[Even if the guy was full of ****, he had some awesome idea's that made sense and started some great discussion. Is that not the fun of this forum? Why would it be deleted?[/b]

Actually it is the spoiler forum, it is for tidbits of information and informed speculation.
There are fanfic forums and others here on TFN for neat ideas (though FOS) that start discussion.
As for the journal, asode from immediately thinking "Whatchu talkin about whills?" I do not quite think the information will be in such a tangible form.
If so why was it never mentioned in the past, why never mentioned again, it would have given Luke alot more to go on if Yoda had whipped it out (the journal you sick freaks).
I think Lucas will find another way to get the information across.
(Though a prophecy of one who will bring balance is mentioned before so who knows)


"an autobot will rise to light our darkest hour..."
Ack wrong film.

 

It's possible that the Journal is where information on past events were kept, in the Jedi Archives. And in there is something that could answer some type of question, possibly about Anakin's role in the grand scheme of things.

 

Great thread Snake, very in-depth and well-spoken. Glad to have it here.

First, I just wanted to say to Darth-Punk: Actually, if you think about it, the quote about the emperor in the JotW is perfectly accurate. Palpatine didn't tool around the galaxy personally having a hand in the governing of any system, he kept himself secluded from everybody and sent Vader and Tarken and the other Moffs out to carry out his agendas. Sure, he wasn't outwardly/visibly controlled by them, but what do you think would have happened to him if they all mutinied? Once a person sets themselves up with so many underlings, they rely on them as much as the underlings rely on the boss. So what the JotW says is true...
From a certain point of view.

Now, on to the JotW itself...
My impression of the Whills since the very beginning is that of watchers... After reading countless scattered articles, threads, fanfic, and EU stuff about the Whills, the best and most logical explanation I could come up with for them is that they are an ancient race existing since the dawn of time who's sole purpose is to watch and record all of history, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant an event.
Considering GL's heavy reliance on several major religions and mythos for the creation of the overall saga, this isn't too strange a thought as there are sects of monks (I believe that it's Buddhist, but don't quote me on that) who believe that there are "recorders/watchers" who do just that. Couple that with the obvious eastern philosophy inherent to the whole concept of the Force, and it all makes very logical sense.

Personally, I'm still not buying into that whole craptastical fantasy that the ability to retain one's identity after death is some "trick" that the Jedi can learn like any other force power, so I've never been able to wrap my head around the concept that the JotW is a textbook/scroll/learning-guide of any sort... Beyond what is already is; A history. If one knows how to read and properly interpret history, then any history textbook becomes a learning-guide for any number of things: Politics, strategy (military and otherwise), romance and love, sociology, art, etc. etc. etc. If the Whills are some omniscient race that records all they see, then one really could learn a LOT from simply reading their history of the universe (especially if they recorded the advent of the force and it's uses etc.).

 

Why is it that any serious, in-depth discussion gets forgotten quicker than the fact that Han shot first, but threads with titles like "Anakin dances at ballet to impress Palpatine?" gets something like 4,000 responses and lives forever?

 

I read the Insider article with Pablo, it's his usual beat around the bush B/S. Don't take stock in him