main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books Journey to TFA: Lost Stars by Claudia Gray (finally coming to paperback Aug 1!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by GrandAdmiralJello , Jul 8, 2015.

  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Alas, by Jakku, Cienna is extremely significant.

    Because everyone else was jumping ship en masse.
     
    MandaloreRex2015 likes this.
  2. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Oh, we're all mad here.
     
  4. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Quite frankly, I don't know if the New Republic remanants have the infrastructure, bureacracy, and especially the kind of philosophy that would lead to rounding up of all ex-Imperial navy officers. From a material and personnel standpoint, the NR was far smaller than the Galactic Empire, which was a true police state that even still apparently struggled with desertions, defections, disappearances and deaths after Alderaan and Death Star I, so there's no way that a smaller government that's just been decapitated is going to be able to snap up a force that even at the end of Jakku was probably larger than what the ISB had to put up with when they commissioned Cienna to find Thane. If anything, it's probable that experienced naval personnel of all kinds would likely be recruited by the NR's rallying military forces, even ex-Imperials, some of whom I frankly expect to see integrated into the Resistance after 20 years of seeing the Galaxy without Palpatine's Great Lie of Order Requires Tyranny.

    Beyond that, Cienna's a Naval Officer. There's literally millions of such officers throughout the Galaxy, and, rather importantly, while there is such a thing as "fleet politics," the navy itself is not a political organization in the same sense as COMPNOR. They're a secular force politically, not party hardliners*. Top brass can and will be held accountable for their nation's crimes, but of we're going to try and argue Cienna's Captaincy makes her a "top officer" at Jakku, it bears mentioning she seems to have only held the rank and command for ONE SINGLE BATTLE. Military service, even to an enemy, is something to be left on a record and used for investigations into an individual, but it's not an equivalent to "suspected terrorist" or even "convicted felon." Civilians may give you the side eye, but there's not going to be jackbooted NR Agents bursting in on all ex-Imperial Officers after SKB. Again, if anything, they'll probably be offering commissions to anyone who an NR/Rebel Alliance/Resistance member will vouch for.

    Which leaves us with Cienna's fate depending on how the investigation into her goes...

    *The asterisks will payoff in my second response.
    My re-read reminded me of even more pertinent facts that would make Ree's dossier suspicious; not only is she personally commisioned by Grand Moff Randd under Councilor Rax's authority, not only has she served under Vader's two flagships, not only did she co-pilot the rescue ship for Vader at Yavin...

    ...Vader personally assigned her to the Executor. That's quite possibly considered damning circumstantial evidence. And I noticed other possibilities; they're not explicit in the text, but it's not hard to read them. Tarkin later recalls Cienna's recruitment and notes Cienna's service to the Empire. He might have made a personal note of it, or his secretary, etc, which would again add unsightly names to her service record. And the Rees being abandoned when Mama Ree is put on trial may not just be Imperial disfavor; the first mentioning of the "stand by your friend" tradition notes that the Rees are backing an Imperial-leaning family against their neighbors. Is it possible that Cienna's family has a bad name as collaborators on Jelucan, further painting her in a bad light?

    Okay, now to use that earlier *asterisk...

    There's one more HUGE logical development that might explain why the NR is arresting all officers at Jakku on suspicion of war crimes: Operation Cinder. Hear me out: a lot of us have discussed how Operation Cinder seems to be the ultimate counter-productive Imperial counter-attack to Endor; heavy desertions, fratricidal warfare and defections almost certainly occurred when the Imperial war machine was turned on its own populace across the board. Each separate O:C action probably caused hundred of Imperials to quit, if not switch sides. Add in what we know about the infighting and Rax's machinations against other, competent leaders, and it's quite likely the vast bulk of Imperial forces at Jakku are the ones who carried out O:C and survived. Jakku may very well be a battle where all commanding officers are viewed as party hard-liners, which fits with the survivors forming the FO, and may require a standing order to imprison and interrogate all officers.

    Oh, and my head canon goes with my argument by saying that Grand General Kenner Lorring and his forces are Imperial Loyalists who ignored the orders of-- and maybe even fought against-- Operation: Cinder assaults. Quite frankly, it feels like a natural schism point upon which to divide the Imperial military, and OT plays into my head canon that Lorring might be a Joe Johnston type commander who gets talked into surrendering after the siege against him is tightened.
     
  5. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Considering how things are on Jelucan I really don't see that. The Valley Kindred swore themselves to the Empire...to the point that while none of them (most likely) believed that Ciena's mom did NOT embezzle...the Empire said she did and they swore themselves to the Empire so none stood with the family. The 2nd wavers were also loyal (nominally) to the Empire as the Empire was buying the ore from their mines....even though they were strip mining the planet and causing environmental harm. Most people on Jelucan were pro-Imperial...so Ciena having things like being assigned to Vader's flagship twice or having a note in Tarkin's files will not really mean anything on her homeworld. Add in the buyer's remorse they may also feel about the Empire over the environmental damage and finding out about the atrocities and you might have a planet full of people who are glad the Empire is gone.

    On a side note....I would think that this situation may be something that forces the Valley Kindred to have a serious re-think on exactly what the nature of honor is....is it blindly following an oath even after you find out the person you swore the oath to is not worthy of it...or is it doing what you know to be the right thing.
     
    JediBatman likes this.
  6. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    define right thing
    define strip mining the planet
    define environmental harm

    Why is everyone stressing mining? stressing imperial garrison on a imperial planet? environmental damage specifically?

    Like industrial revolution! BOOO! capitalist economic policy.... BOOOO!!!!!(This one may or may not be argued for or against,) Egalitarian society.... BOOOOO! Anti Graft.... BOOOOOOO
     
  7. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    MU before you said you thought the New Republic probably still had slavery just because Lost Stars didn't explicitly say that they outlawed it. (You know, despite the fact that founding member Leia Organa was at one point chained to Jabba the Hutt and would have dim view on such things, as would most of the heroes). I think this "The New Republic must have purged after Hosnian!" thinking is just your determination see the absolute worst in that government, with little evidence. Besides Propaganda confirms the government is destroyed (as little sense as that makes), and any remnants will have bigger fish to fry than going after a 50 year old woman who was cleared decades ago. There are thousands of Star Destroyer captains, and she only got the job for one day because the Empire was running out of officers at that point.

    . . .because the book itself stressed that these are the ways the Empire hurt Jelucan.

    I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. Are you endorsing these views? Criticising the views of others? Using sarcasm? I have no idea.
     
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  8. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    endorsing industrial revolution, endorsing egalitarian society. endorsing anti graft and using sarcasm.
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The New Republic was founded by Leia, of course's its founded on sarcasm.
     
    JediBatman likes this.
  10. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    I told people the Empire and the NR are the same thing.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    And you would be right in the context that dogs and cats are the same thing.

    :)

    The New Republic is a weak hippie government that is a libertarian Confederate's dream.
     
  12. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Which is why the galaxy will degenerate and balkanize into local polities like The Mandolorian Protectorate, The Tion Hegemony, The Hapes Consortium, The Corporate Sector Authority, The Centrality, The Eriadu Authority, etc, etc, etc....
     
  13. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    When I read the book again last week, the first instance of the "stand by the innocent" ceremony seemed to imply that the charges brought against the family Ciena is standing by were brought by *other* first wavers; taking into account both that and the simple fact that sci-fi worlds are notorious for having ambiguously sized populations for, you know, *planets*, and it's arguable we're maybe dealing with a limited view of a huge population from the point of view of children who only briefly return home twice as adults, or a world far smaller than "planet" would denote, and therefore beg the question why Tarkin would bother personally annexing a world smaller than a single nation.

    In either case, the suggestion that the first wavers were having political squabbles with one party supporting the Empire unequivocally and the other expressing doubts about their techniques is important. We know that by Thane and Ciena's second return home/ceremonial display of support/unplanned bootycall, most of the social divides between the first and second wavers have been effectively destroyed by the Empire's incompetent and inefficient idea of industrialization. The Rees and Kyrells seem to have maintained their cultural trappings, but that's because both have clear loyalty to the Empire and financial ties to it. And considering the overall Galactic turn against the Empire right after Endor and the implication most of the populace turns against the Empire once the fear of force is removed, chances are there's at least significant numbers of Jelucan 1st and 2nd wavers who don't follow the Rees' view of their honor, or the Kyrell's more sycophantic pragmatism.
     
  14. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    We actually don't know that the Jeleucani supported the Rebel Alliance/New Republic even after Jakku. They could be fighting the NR as we speak.

    I agree that the planet may be small though it have to be earth sized for Ciena and Thane not to be like Expanse Belters.

    Maybe oceanic planet with only one small island with grand canyon Colorado river type in the whole world?

    I wouldn't say incompetent and inefficient idea of industrialization. Why do you think social divide destroyed between two classes is a bad thing? True, they are emphasizing industry in the cost of the environment, but that's a given in any RL developing country.
     
  15. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Remember the whole reason the 1st wavers were exiled from their original homeworld is that they refused to renounce their loyalty to the former king. The same honor/loyalty system was still in effect. Ciena's father clearly says no one is standing with them because the Empire accuses her mother and they owe loyalty to the Empire. Now with the fall of the Empire and the treaty they may not have an Empire to follow anymore...but does that mean they throw away that oath and swear fealty to the NR??

    An interesting plot line in a sequel (I hope, I hope, I hope...) would be teh 1st wavers having a serious shift into what the nature of honor is.
     
  16. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    look at your icon. There is my reply for your request for sequel.
     
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    It's something not in Journey to TFA: LOST STARS because they were going for a tragic ending--Claudia and Disney.

    However, the fact there isn't an Empire literally WEEKS after the events of the book and Mas Amedda legally surrenders/dissolves it is kind of an interesting thing to speculate on. It really would solve all of Ciena's problems.

    I'm also imagining her going a bit laughing mad from it.
     
  18. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    That traitor.

    The reason I don't want a sequel is exactly what you Charlemagne19 says. It would really solve all her problems.

    It were me in her situation I would have a major nervous break down instead of whooping WOOT victory dance. or falls in my rebel terrorist friends arms. No sirree.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Yeah, I don't see Ciena and Thane hooking up even if she is freed.

    That would just make the story no longer work.

    Like I enjoyed Death Star: The Novel right up until the tragedy of it (I.e. good people on the Death Star) surviving it.
     
  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I regard the Empire's treatment of Jelucan as inefficient and incompetent for industrialization because it's seems to be less "industrialization" and more "strip mining without regard for long term advancement of the planet itself". Turning the atmosphere into a total health hazard within only a few years shows a sloppy sense of progress; health hazards (and visibility hazards as well as possible machinery problems depending on what's in the pollution) are both things that could almost certainly be avoided with a bit more restraint or by using compensating technology. Also, as a simple example of how fascism is inefficient, condemning Mama Ree to hard labor that could easily be done quicker and more productively with droids as punishment for a crime shows horrible business sense, not to mention fails even harder in stopping the embezzlement that they're allowing someone else to get away with.

    Industrialization also generally strikes me as moving a region from a primary (raw material dependent) economy to a secondary (manufacturing using raw materials) or even tertiary economy (trade in knowledge/data). Near as we can tell, the mining is the only real business going on and seems to be largely a business of off-worlders while the native populace is left totally destitute even far beyond where they were before. It also seems to be treated more as a logistical element for the Death Star II (at least that's the implication in some of the text) and in general the Empire seems more concerned with the comparative wealth of Palpatine; it doesn't really matter whether the Galaxy or even the Emperor's personal wealth increases objectively, it matter that he's got more than anyone else. That's my head canon explanation for why GCW technology and culture seems so much more destitute than the Prequel era, my explanation for why Jeluca was probably better off economically before the a Empire, even as "backwards" as they may have seemed.
    I do love the fact that the 1st wavers are pretty much impoverished patricians taken to the -nth degree; they're formal loyalists to a royal heir denied his throne, and come complete with family banners and a pseudo-chivalric code with heavy feudal-overtones. I do keep feeling like there were likely 1st wavers who would have refused to stand with the Rees not out of over-riding loyalty to the Empire, but out of a feeling of karmic justice for collaborators bearing the punishment of an amoral occupation. Those 1st wavers may be the totally destitute guys indistinguishable from the destitute 2nd wavers, but they'd still probably glare at the Rees. I'm torn in the interpretation I've come up with, though; a culture formed by stubborn loyalists willing to flee a planet might genuinely be that homogeneous in a warped honor code. It just clashes with my knowledge that the reason most medieval legends about Knights emphasized chivalry! honor, and loyalty was because those were actually in short supply or at least in enough contention and debate to need reinforcement.

    And a thought for potential sequels regarding Thane and Cienna: you'd pretty much require some kind of conflict to drive them back towards each other. The growing conflict between them defined the last book, and you'd need something to act as a reversal of that in another book. Probably still needs some rocky elements of they get back together.
     
  21. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Some kind of alien invasion on the scale of the Yuuzhan Vong* would be needed. Then the Imperials and the NR would need to band together to battle said alien. Then I could accept their relationship. But Thane need to be killed in battle to save Ciena in the final showdown.

    Anyone kind of reason the name of Yuuzhan Vong maybe Chinese in origin? Like Imperial War Old Men? Yu4 Zhan4 Weng1? 御战翁? Rumor has it the storygroup behind the NJO were having Pho...
     
  22. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Don't really need a conflict...the war is over. Thane leaves NR service, Ciena is released along with billions of other rank and file Imperials, and they both return home to help their home world rebuild. The conflict is not in their relationship...they are together and happy...it comes from things around them.
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    For me, that just doesn't work because it overrides the ending of the book and its themes. Thane and Ciena are just fundamentally different people. They will always love each other but the symbolism at the end was pretty clear to me.

    Together forever but always apart.

    To get together, one or the other will be forced to give up their beliefs.
     
    godisawesome likes this.
  24. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    If she is released, and she gets together with Thane. Then Lost Stars as a book fail.

    Further thoughts

    Their friendship/platonic love was perfect. Things went downhill after lust came in.
    All Ciena knew was kiss kiss kiss swollen lips. Kiss. more kiss.
    Finally she was redeemed and focused and t hen Thane comes in, ruins the last pure thing that ciena had (Using Look through my eyes to get access to Bridge), and then brings her ultimate humiliation by making her a POW?! Ruining her future forevermore?! And people want to reward Thane by making him getting the girl?
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Honestly, I don't see how they could. If they return to their homeworld, Ciena's people will be Pro-Imperial and growl about the treason of the Rebels because that's what their culture is about. Thane will never take that lying down.

    If they go elsewhere, there's going to be the same divide.

    Ciena can't even turn against her fellow Imperials in prison.
     
    DARTH_MU likes this.