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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books Journey to TFA: Lost Stars by Claudia Gray (finally coming to paperback Aug 1!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by GrandAdmiralJello , Jul 8, 2015.

  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Heck, there was also Kharys and the original redheaded assassin for the Emperor, Lumiya.

    Oh and that Mara Jade woman.

    But yes, it's kind of funny that just a little after the Jedi Academy Trilogy, the Empire was revealed to have taken over by Ysanne Isard.
     
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Those were a bit less Military, and a bit more Dark Jedi (though Lumiya's "Shira Brie" cover identity was rebel military officer).
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Boy, this thread suddenly got active.

    But seriously why are you guys name dropping random EU women? They don't count. Lexu rightly pointed out the EU is gone. Lost Stars is a canon book, canon examples would've been more relevant.

    I long argued that the EU Empire wasn't sexist, using many of the same examples, but it basically was. The authors were just hugely inconsistent on it but there was little profit in denying it because it also denied that the fandom as a whole was sexist. Which it was. So my preference was that the fandom not be nearly as sexist, which I address below...

    Show trials. And we know now that the reparations are being paid by the Empire ultimately, which surrenders after Jakku. The Empire gets treated pretty harshly which, well, one might expect.

    Why hello stranger!

    Imperial sexism isn't a thing at all. That's EU and that's not canon any longer. The new canon has done away with that entirely because it didn't make much sense.

    Point taken about the xenophobia. A big part of this book was seeing how Ciena dealt with and rationalized this stuff. Slavery and/or xenophobia never played a role in the book, but they were a part of Imperial policy.

    The new canon has female Imperials, Rae Sloane most prominent among them. They've officially done away with the sexism. It's handled decently well in the books -- we have two moffs, stormtrooper captains, three of the four admirals in the Imperial Admiralty are women, etc. the show Rebels has failed dismally though.

    (This largely depends on the authors in question tho, with the best representation done by authors who try to be more diverse in their writing. Not all authors have got the memo specifically because there isn't a diversity memo so much as acknowledgement that Imperial sexism isn't a thing anymore.)

    As noted above, it's just not true anymore. However I agree with you in principle -- the biggest reason I disliked Imperial sexism in the EU -- I wrote a whole piece on it, which I can link you to -- is that it never made sense. It was never used to make readers question or challenge sexism, but just to reflect real-world sexism. It also imported real-world discrimination without an IU basis -- the Republic has women in power, what IU basis was there for sexism in the Empire? It was OOU sexism but put in their for flavor, as another thing the bad guys did because they were bad instead of actually addressing it.

    Aside from KJA, who did it badly, I can't recall any EU authors who really addressed sexism in an adult fashion. Stackpole, kinda, (Captain Illor, finally promoted after Endor Bc Empire couldn't afford to continue denying talented women their due) but arguably a lot of his writing was.... not the best when it came to gender issues. It was done pretty poorly.

    But in any event, that's all EU and out of the picture. Ciena's not the only female Imperial and she's actually one of the lowest-ranking ones we've seen in the new canon. Even Battlefront -- with gamers being so terrible about these things -- features female Imperial officers and equal numbers of male and female stormies.

    Personally I'm fine with it -- my thinking is you either do it right and use it as a chance to address the issues as part of your narrative, or you don't import real life discrimination lest it just be another avenue for discrimination ("girls can't be stormtroopers!") in real life. Basically either address it or actually just be inclusive. I'm glad they're going the inclusive route.

    *shrug* what do you think? I'm hopefully not coming across as rah rah Empire here. But if I've missed something or if there's an angle to this I haven't considered I'd be interested to know. Or just if you disagree, heh.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    To get back to Lost Stars, here's some interesting notes:

    1. This is actually a pretty good anti-romance novel. At least, it's anti-romance the way Twilight and other books portray romance as the most important thing ever. This is closer to Hunger Games, I think. Basically, every time our heroes are forced to choose between their Special SomeoneTM and the cause, they choose the cause. It has the Casablanca, "the problems of two people don't mean a hill of beans in this here world."

    2. It's interesting to note Nash actually has a pretty bright future ahead of him. As a surviving competent Imperial who has repeatedly proven his competence, he's very likely to rise through the ranks quickly and he has thirty years of peace to survive. The next time we see Nash, it's quite likely he's going to be a General or perhaps even Admiral depending on which officer track he's taken.

    3. As mentioned, I take note Cien Ree is kind of hypocritical (or perhaps myopic) about her rationalizations as she thinks Nash and others are insane for their attitudes. However, they're basically just aping her own mental gymnastics. I mean, the Empire framed her mother for embezzlement then sent her to hard labor.

    4. That part rang false to me, honestly, as I think we should have seen more Imperial corruption in favor of our heroes. It would have been a better scene in my mind if, after finding her mother had an Imperial officer as a child, that they framed some other random local for it. It would have even more struck at Ree's sense of honor.

    5. I actually really like Nash Windrider as a character as both a tragic and repellent character. I think he's a guy who is mentally ill and in dire need of treatment as opposed to evil. I also think Ree and others completely miss this element and just treat him as a fanatic (which is, pot, kettle, black). I also think his "Nice Guy" attitude toward her was excellently creepy like the sniper from Inglorious Basterds.

    6. I think it's appropriate for Cien Ree to be put on trial for war crimes because it's going to look like she's one given she's a member of the Death Squadron, one of Darth Vader's officers, and then an Imperial. Of course, I can't imagine how Nash's Rebel friends look at him for his role as a former Death Star operative. Of course, WE know she's not guilty of anything but it's interesting the Rebellion may be ready to do some serious revenge-charges.

    7. This book isn't crying out for a sequel but I think a good one would be to have her repatriated to the First Order/Imperial Remnant and see how that works. It would be interesting to see her in a position of actual power and influence but surrounded now, completely, by true believers who were utterly focused on their goals.

    8. I think the book went a little overboard is its portrayal of the darkness of the Empire but I suppose that was inevitable.

    9. Also, does anyone else think Ree was mildly force-sensitive? It would explain her reaction to Vader and Palpatine.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Winter had the same reaction in the EU and was never hinted as being more sensitive than the average.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    That was before we discovered Palpatine was hanging around the Jedi all the time and picking up on nothing. I think living spiritual cancer and black hole should be something most people are oblivious too when they're meeting their Supreme Leader.
     
  7. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    ...is it weird that I don't think the book went overboard in portraying the darkness of the Empire? I think it was the book I always wanted. One that showed how people got into the Imperial system and were blinded to its true nature. What do you think was too dark about it?

    My only complaint was that I found Ciena's disillusionment a little unconvincing.

    I agree with you about corruption though. Had the charges been overturned just because of who Ciena was, Imperial justice might've rang hollow.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Probably a case of him cloaking his true nature, and later, dropping that cloak.

    Palpatine used to be portrayed as very reclusive in the OT era - maybe this still applies.
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the issue I had was the Trauma Conga Line of her idealism, really. I think it did a good job of portraying the system and how it works as well as the evils but I think it kind of dropped the ball a little in the last act. It would have been nice to have some more scenes where Ciena gets to enjoy the perks of being an Imperial or some elements which allow her to reaffirm what she thinks the Empire is all about.
    Defeating pirates or Mandalorians and so on.

    Or, again, her mother getting off scott free due to who she is.

    It's similarly my complaint with Thane's perspective that once he joins the Rebel Alliance, his plotline almost stops dead because he's only getting the good stuff of the book reaffirmed. As much as this book is awesome with the "heroes on both sides" and "war is bad because both sides are people" element, I think it could have gone a LITTLE farther.

    Kendy, for example, talks about how the Imperial system eats up and destroys people. I would have liked to have seen Rebels who were vengeful and outright playing up the fact they intended to put Cien Ree on trial for JUST the crime of being an Imperial rather than anything she actually did. It's already one of the Gray vs. Gray-est Star Wars novels but it's still pretty Black and White--just a little grayer (not detracting from the fact the Rebellion is good and the Empire evil) but showing a bit more of the Rebel's flaws and Empire's merits.

    That may not be STAR WARS, though.

    What do you think?

    Yeah, the portrayal of the Empire actually torturing its officers to see if they're loyal is....silly. Regimes like the Empire get by on cronyism and corruption, not making its thugs hate them.

    I especially didn't like the idea they were possibly arresting her mother as a test for Cien.

    What are they training her for, the Banite Sith?
     
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  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Hmm. I like seeing harsh Rebels but it depends. Like, the heroes on both sides thing has its limits because this is a morality tale.

    If we saw more zealous and terroristic rebels, I don't want to see them as something that is like SEE THE EMPIRE IS GOOD but instead as people the other, better Rebels have to deal with. Maybe forced to work with, or they go too far and reject them.

    Twilight Company is very good at this.

    Re: corruption, yeah that loyalty test was silly. There should be perks -- that's why fascist bullies do what they do.

    I did like the whole thing about discarding planetary loyalties for a more cosmopolitan, Core viewpoint. Fascists loved abusing high culture to remove provincial trappings from people and to convince them of superiority.

    That Core Worlds Classical Culture class was one of my favorite things in the new canon. Along with the Palace ball. Ah, if only the Empire would stop with this brutal conquest nonsense and just have soirées all day instead!

    This is why I don't like the FO. It's the Empire without the pomp and class, just the brutality :p


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    As you know, I'm a big fan of the Outer Rim territories, underdogs, and class warfare elements of the Star Wars universe so I'm actually quite interested in the First Order for the opposite reasons. I think there's a lot of potential interesting stories aboout the fact the First Order is kind of a funhouse mirror of what Sloane and Ree wanted from the Empire.

    The First Order is the Empire without the corruption, cronyism, in-fighting, or hypocrisy. Its members genuinely all believe they're out to save the galaxy from the chaos of the galaxy, its members are all committed to each other as well as the cause, and they're all less interested in their own personal advancement than the advancement of the cause.

    And it's TERRIFYING.
     
  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
  13. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Good news for Lost Stars. It went back into the USA Today top 150 bestsellers list this week. Undoubtedly because of the movie but that might be a sign to Del Rey/Disney that there is a lot of interest in these two main characters and it might convince them to tell us what happens to them afterward.
     
  14. Figrin D'aniel

    Figrin D'aniel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2013
    I'm really enjoying reading Lost Stars right now and it's really cool to see Thane and Ciena witnessing and participating in events from the Original Trilogy! One thing that seemed very strange to me though is how Yendor is in the Battle of Hoth. I feel like if a blue skinned Twi'lek was really in the Battle of Hoth, you would have seen him on screen, especially during the scene were Princess Leia was briefing the pilots. Does this contradict the movie itself? Or is it just something where you have to suspend disbelief? I guess you could say the same about all the new characters invented for Lost Stars but Yendor stuck out the most to me
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It's a square peg in round hole solution! :)
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I don't always take what's on screen too literally - after all - Wedge, for example, is played by two actors in the same movie. And we can reasonably assume he's not a Clawdite.
     
  17. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
    Don't think this has been mentioned yet but a friend of mine just pointed out that Chapter 27 has a pretty cool Rebels reference ;)

     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, I thought it was a little too cute but I guess it's a lot more subtle than mentioning Lothal.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I just assume he's behind the camera. :)
     
  20. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006

    I felt uncomfortable with Corona Squadron flying snowspeeders with Rogue Group. Would've been better if the pilots from Corona Squadron were divided up between Green and Blue Squadrons and seen escorting or flying transports off Hoth as opposed to what we got.
     
  21. RogueSix

    RogueSix Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Just finished reading LS and I have to say, even though I am not an expert on SW lit, this is the best SW book (at least in the canon era) and one of the better BOOKS I have read in a long time. I give it a 9/10.

    The only thing I really saw left to be desired was the conclusion. With that said, if their is a sequel in the works, I would have no complaints with that either.

    I really enjoyed how the book explored the SW universe at a macro and micro scale while tying in what I thought was a very intriguing plot that took us through and beyond the OT. Thane and Ciena are excellent, albeit frustrating at times, characters and make an even better duo.

    Some of my favorite chapters took place in the Imperial Academy on Coruscant and gave an almost Harry Potter-like feel while simultaneously (at least to my knowledge) letting its readers explore a previously unknown part of the empire: its Officers academies.

    All around, this book is great and I would recommend it to anyone, even those that don't necessarily geek out on SW lit like I do.
     
  22. Noir Deux

    Noir Deux Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2015
    I'm halfway through this and I'm surprised about the quality and how the story is developing so easily.

    The fact that we have new characters living thru the Rebels and ANH events is amazing, it's like reliving the movies from a whole new POV.

    I love SW but was never into the EU books, mostly because it's was hard to find them in Spanish in Mexico and I was a child, but this book converted me and now I want to read all of them: Tarkin, LOTS, Aftermath and maybe AND.

    I don't want it to end because Ciena and Thane are great characters; maybe they will show up later (if they survived this, I'm not there yet).
     
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  23. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Hate to burst the consensus. Just started reading and I find it a struggle to read on. The front cover and summary on the back was what got me to buy it. I accept I found it interesting at first only then did it become too much. The romance aspect is what is dragging it down. I also don't like the idea of merely inserting the two main characters into crucial moments of the OT. Lazy writing and I know how it ends their is no adventure or drama. I read a few pages ahead and it comes across as a lovers quarrel. Not digging the book.
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yet it's primarily sold as a romance novel?

    One other point, if military sci-fi ain't your thing - and it sounds like it isn't - then you ought to steer clear of Battlefront: Twilight Company.
     
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  25. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Good to know I read one of the Legacy books Star Wars Jedi Search the Jedi Academy Trilogy. Now that was more my area. Upon further evaluation i'm going to get the next two parts.