"Judge me by my size, do you?" - Vader's Force Ability in Relation to the Condition of his Body

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by R2D2_gave_up_flying, Mar 18, 2006.

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  1. R2D2_gave_up_flying Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    :confused:

    I can still enjoy the first 3 films (original versions), but in the larger "SW world" it seems like Lucas either has a short memory or gets off on contradicting himself.

    I'm not talking about minor continuity stuff, I'm talking about the concept of the Force.

    Then there's the "midichlorians" issue...but that's another thread.

    bizarre.

    ousley edit: I guess I'll leave this open... just discuss the issue regarding Vader's body size/Force ability since that's the direction the thread took.
  2. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    What?

    I don't understand how the title has anything to do with the rest of the post. And I also would like to point out that the "concept of the Force" is SUPPOSED to change throughout the films.

    So um... explain yourself a bit better or this gets locked.
  3. geo_gnosis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2006
    star 3
    I understand (I think). In ESB Yoda admonishes Luke, "Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not! The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is..." And of course the famous "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." The idea seemed to be that the Force and its power were almost infinite, and not subject to mere physical limitations such as bodily size.

    Later on, in the prequels and EU and so on, there is the idea that Anakin/Vader has lost some power after losing much of his body mass. Which, on some level, does seem to contradict the earlier idea---that the Force is powerful and not subject to physical limits.

    My (limited) understanding of the Force-lightning, though, is that it does draw its energy directly from the user's body. So Vader being unable to make use of that power---because he doesn't have enough body left---makes some sense. That and the fact that zillions of mega-joules of power coursing through his life-support systems probably isn't a great idea. ;)
  4. sonofcoruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2006
    star 2
    What? This is the most unclear thread in the history of anything.

    But going on what it seems to be about, I think it is important to note that Vader was a darksider, and I think the darkside is completely tied up with ideas like vanity and pride. I would judge a Lightsider who had lost limbs as far more able to negociate this and be sucessful than one who had not made peace with it. Also, I think that Yoda was just literally saying not to write him off because he was short, that is not quite the same thing as claiming that getting all your limbs hacked off would not impede you, you are supposed to have them after all. And I think even if you lose limbs you can still be a lumnious being in a spirtual sense, but the physical aspect is still there.
  5. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Later on, in the prequels and EU and so on, there is the idea that Anakin/Vader has lost some power after losing

    I've never gotten the idea that he lost a lot of his power specifically because he lost body mass. I've always seen it that he was just so badly injured that he could never fully recover from it, especially since his body needs a life support system just to survive.

    The size of his body doesn't matter... however, it is harder to use the Force in a weakened condition such as the one he was in.
  6. sonofcoruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2006
    star 2
    I dont think it is unreasonable at all to assume that because you were born into the force whole, that that is how you commune with the force the best. Now, I think of the force in theory as something someone with no limbs could use just as well for all sorts of things, but I think you would have to be REALLLLLLY powerful and focused, because it would be harder. Perhaps akin to how in theory size does not matter, but you really have to let yourself belive that lifting that building is just the same as a pebble, few Jedi could do this without some effort.
  7. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    Hmmm...very interesting Matt. The running theory is that Anakin is weaker because he lost limbs. I have disagreed with that since the first time I heard it. This "Vader is now weak" theory just drives me up the wall. Says who? (Well GL says so, somewhat, but that's not canon in any form) But I can understand your view, and it makes since and appeals to both schools of thought. I'll buy it! :)

    =D=
  8. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    Yeah, I think it's more that he 'lost touch' with the Force, so to speak. Not because there is less body to touch it with, but because he's so different and damaged now.
  9. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    There's also the mental damage issue. Vader became severely disturbed after the events on Mustafar. If you look at Purge and Shadows of the Emire (although I know in these parts EU isn't viable evience) he develops OCD-like symptoms. I would imagine the mental damage would impair Vader from tapping into the Force quite as effectively.
  10. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    That's also a good point.

    Though, I'm still not sure what the thread author really wanted to talk about. :p
  11. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    Yeah but we made it into something interesting :D
  12. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    I feel that he hasn't LOST power but the power that he does have has to go into keeping himself intact and generally walking around and moving and such. Before getting butchered up by Obi-Wan, taking a walk down the block was simple. Now that he has no real limbs, no real lungs, and all sorts of other physical problems - an everyday action for a whole person is a chore for him - one he has to use the force to perform these tasks. This topic used to drive me nuts. I hated the whole Midichlorian concentration/Less limbs less midichlorians thought process that people often use. After I read Dark Lord and learned what a pain in the ass his suit is, it made more sense.

    Carnage
  13. StormTrooper1776 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    Vader can use force lightning,but he doesn't ever use it,because he knows it will shut down his suit.And that is why Vader needs a major CGI/stuntmen update for his duels,to show that he uses the force when he is in combat.Then what Yoda has said to Luke will make sense.
  14. TCG Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2005
    star 2
    i believe the thread starter is bringing up a continuity issue that has been discussed before. it's mentioned in the commentary for ROTS (i think) that because vader lost his limbs, he is weaker in the force and cannot overtake palpatine. this seems to contradict the stuff that yoda says, about size matters not. if it's body mass, then the stuff yoda says is wrong. if it's about midi density, then the guy on the commentary is wrong, and there's no reason vader should be weaker in the force.
  15. Darth_Falcon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2002
    star 5
    I'm with the people who think this is a ridiculous idea.

    The midichlorian count is more of a percentage not an actual count. It doesn't matter how many limbs or metres of intestine you lose, you still hold the same ratio in your blood stream. Therefore, you still have the same strength connection to the Force.

    Vader may appear weaker simply because he's on life support, because he's trapped in a robotic body and can't be as atheletic or agile. Though, in my opinion he's much more powerful. His lightsaber strikes aren't as artistic or speedy but more precise and strong. A change in style to match his conditions.
  16. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    The only reason Vader was stated to be weaker in the suit is after TPM came out.

    Critics were on Lucas' ass to explain why the CT duels were pathetic in comparison to the PT duels. Lucas said he had to come to grips with he fact that the duel in ANH is between an old man and a half robot. Which is totally contradicted by RotS seeing how Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious are all older than Obi Wan was in ANH and They fight extremely well. Not to mention General Grievous, who is more machine than Vader is and is fully capable of fluid movements and hes able to kill Jedi. and he doesn't even use the force.

    The biggest setback with Vader's injuries are his mental and emotional injuries. He has to come to grips with what has happened to him and basically he has to start over. He has to learn how to walk, fight with a saber and use the force again.

    Really, the only thing that suited Vader cannot do as well as other ofrce users is Lightining for obvious reasons. But IMO, force lightining is overrated. It can be easily dispelled by a lightsaber in capable hands. Thats why Vader masters the choke. You can't block that with a saber.
  17. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Vader is less powerful because the Force runs through living things. Most of Vader's body is mechanical, so he can't make as strong a connection to the Force. This doesn't contradict Yoda's claim that "size matters not". Yoda is small, but his body is completely organic. It's an issue of living matter vs. machine, not an issue of size. No matter how small you are, it doesn't make you any weaker in the Force. On the other hand, being partially mechanical will make you weaker.
  18. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    As Yoda says in TESB, The force runs through everything. The rocks, the trees, and yes even Luke's mechanical X-Wing. This happens to be another contradiction of Mr. Lucas.

    "Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter."
  19. BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    I've been saying this for that for the longest time. Clearly Lucas made these claims in order to justify the less than stellar duels of the first trilogy. I simply don't buy the fact that Vader was weaker while in the suit, or less mobile for that matter. Had those films been produced today, he would most certainly be doing cartwheels and sommersaults all throughout the Death Star during his duel with Obi Wan.

    And if Vader really was weakened after the suit, why was he able to create a small earthquake at the end of ROTS?
  20. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    It was just some droids and equipment. It's said that, had Vader been in possession of his full Anakin-potential, he could have brought down the whole building.
  21. Knightstorme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 3
    I've been going over this theory ever since it has been brought out. I mean Anakin technically has the same concentration of midichlorians he had as a child. That means concentration per cell. So why has his force power diminshed.
  22. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    It's because he's not as physically and mentally strong/adept as he once was. He has to have life support to even live - and each living moment has to be agony for him. He has so much going wrong and so much stuff going through his mind that getting a clear connection to the Force has to be very difficult for him. Even with the same concentration/percentage of midichlorians, if he can't connect to them as well then they don't do him any good at all.
  23. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Context is EVERYTHING.

    Luke is doubting his own ability to move the ship. His negativity and wavering confidence is undermining his effort...

    ...so Yoda tells him he is wrong to judge his ability to move the ship by looking at the size of the ship.

    Yoda then draws a comparison to himself:

    "Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not..."

    Appearances can be deceiving.

    The issue of Vader's midichlorean(sp?) count is a whole other issue.

    I don't see it as a contradiction, but even if it was, how is it a contradiction of Mr. Lucas...

    ...if Yoda is the one saying it?:confused:
  24. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    Its a contradiction because Lucas said that Vader's power was diminshed because he has mechanical limbs therefore with mechanical limbs he can no longer channel the force with his entire body, even though Yoda says the force runs through everything even mechanical things.
  25. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Didn't Lucas actually say that Vader is less powerful than he might have been if he hadn't lost part of his body? Isn't that different than saying the addition of mechanical limbs impedes his ability?

    As far as the force existing in everything, even mechanical things...

    ...before the PT, did you think the ship should be able to use the force to raise the rock?
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