"Judge me by my size, do you?" - Vader's Force Ability in Relation to the Condition of his Body

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by R2D2_gave_up_flying, Mar 18, 2006.

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  1. Wolfhawk85 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2005
    If Vader did lose power with his limbs, I pose this question. Since Luke lost his hand did he lose any power? I don't believe so. I agree that just the effort of staying alive is sapping so much of his strength that Vader is limited in what he can do. Also we should consider the abilities and limitations of the mechanics of Vader's limbs. Granted prosthetics are much more advanced in the SW universe and no doubt Vader was busy tweaking them, but there still are limitations to what they can do in comparison to organic limbs. I'm wondering if anyone else thought about this, and if I'm wrong just let me know.
  2. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    But he lost an arm prior to the ROTS incident and no one was saying how he had become weaker. In fact, his "powers had doubled" since AOTC. This subject just bugs me. He was supposed to be the most powerful ever even after he lost a significant chunk of his arm. But now all of the sudden, just because he lost three more limbs...argghhh. My perception of the force is it is something you can become infinitely powerful with, meaning the only limitation is yourself, not how many limbs you have. Maybe Vader may have had to compensate, but even if all that was true, I'm sure he was easily able to gain back whatever he may have lost with his natural growth in the force after that incident. Besides, in reminiscence of something Obi-Wan said...

    Not to worry. He still has half his limbs :D
  3. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    Lucas said the addition of mechanical limbs stunted his connection to the force. Making him "maybe 80% of the Emperor." So yes, Lucas said he is less powerful with mechanical limbs. Which is a contradiciton of what Yoda says about the force in ESB.


    About a ship using the force to raise a rock; I have no idea what you're talking about. But an inanimate object can not channel the force, but an inanimate object can have the force channel through it by a living being. Make sense?
  4. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Maybe I'm being dense here, but even if Lucas actually said that, I'm still having trouble identifying the contradiction.


    Yoda says:

    "Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship!"

    According to Yoda, the energy of the Force exists between Luke, Yoda, the tree, the rock, even between the land and the ship.

    Based on that speech, I suppose the energy of the Force also exists between Anakin's stump and his artificial limb...

    ...but how does that contradict Lucas' suggestion that Anakin's ability to use the Force is diminished after he receives his artificial limbs?

    Reading the quote from Yoda, I still don't detect any inference that when it comes to the ability to manipulate the Force, real limbs = articial limbs.



    Sorry. That was my SILLY way of saying that in spite of what Yoda says, when it comes to the Force...all things are not equal.

    If they were, while Luke was raising the rock...

    ...the rock could be raising Luke.;)


    Well, 'can' implies possibility, not inevitability, but that's beside the point.

    I would say this - it seems to me that it would be possible for Anakin to manipulate his mechanical limbs through the Force...

    ...but that doesn't mean that his mechanical limbs would be equal to his living flesh when it comes to his Force ability.
  5. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    or you could stop assuming that it has mainly (or even anything) to do with his limbs or loss thereof. You all think in terms of "crude matter". It's not the amount of tissue that's gone, it's the amount of injury itself. Maybe it's even pain (unless Dark Lord or SotE contradict this) even though pain can fuel the Dark Side, but it could also distract just as much.

    And of course there is psychological damage.
  6. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    ^^Yeah I'm in that school of though. This "shell of a man" syndrome is very obvious in ROTJ. It's like he just doesn't care what happens to himself anymore, live/die/good/bad - he doesn't really give a ______! Now that would certainly weaken a man.
  7. Darth_Manic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2005
    star 1
    Being more machine than man Vader has lost alot of his power,but that does not explain why GG is more agile than Vader.I know GG is not force sensitive,but it still does not make much sense.
  8. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    My lunch this afternoon was more delicious than my lunch yesterday.

    Why?

    It just doesn't make sense.[face_thinking]



    Hey! That guy's girlfriend is prettier than mine.

    Why?

    It just doesn't make sense.[face_thinking]
  9. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    Hey whaddaya know! I'm that guy! [face_dancing]
  10. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Well, that explains everything.;)
  11. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    I've always thought that Vader became more powerful in some respects between ROTS and the PT, but was obviously restricted physically, and so never reached his enormous potential. He was certainly a lot more clinical and ice cool as suited Vader than he was earlier, particularly in ESB when he was at his Badass best.
  12. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree, it doesn't make much sense. As one noted above, why didn't Lucas comment on Anakin losing his arm: He should have lost some force potential there as well - but it didn't seem he did.

    In terms of how Vader did not become as powerful as he should, I think it may be that he had none of his former things to fight for. In the PT, his love for Padme made him stronger as well as his relationship with OBW (that sounded gay:D ) In the OT, he has lost everything he has. He is filled with hate, but yet there is still good in him. His hate is conflicted, and thus he doesn't become as powerful as he would if he were purely of the light side or purely of the dark-side. However, none of this explains force potential. If GL said that Vader is 80% of Sideous' strength in the OT, meaning in force potential, he is not making self... Then we'll have to see how much two legs and one arm make up of an entire body and reduce that from the 200% more force potential Anakin was supposed to have... Anyone wanting to do the math?:D
  13. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    I still don't see how GG being more agile 'doesn't make sense'.


  14. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    I fail to see the problem with GG being more agile. GG's droid body was designed to be stronger and faster than organic matter. It's like a crane being able to lift a heavier load than the person operating it. And of course, Vader is less agile because he has more of an organic component than Grievous. Perhaps Vader's robotic leg can propel him super-fast. Perhaps his robot arm can punch through durasteel. But you're failing to account how that would affect the damaged tissue to which they are attached. Grievous has no need to worry about his arm being ripped out of its socket by its own force. Vader has a chunk of metal protruding from his burned flesh, attached to a bone. It can't possibly have the same ability to hold itself in place as GG's metal upper arm.
  15. J_Gonn_Jinn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2005
    star 1
    The simple answer is the OT was made 1977-1983, The PT 1999-2005. Technology has changed therefore old men like christopher lee can be jumping around doing somersaults etc. In the old days the suit was heavy and there was no CGI. Lucas is making it worse by trying to make up explanations

    Whoever said that if the OT was made today Vader would be doing somersaults and jumping around during the duels is quite right, same goes for Obi Wan, although to a lesser extent

    Come to think of it same goes for luke. But I do see the point in Vader trying hard to keep himself alive, but still...
  16. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    I pretty much prefer to ignore what George Lucas has said about Vader's "diminished" use of the Force.

    REVENGE OF THE SITH or A NEW HOPE doesn't indicate anything of the kind. And in the novel, "THE DARK LORD" it is hinted that Vader's diminish in the Force is due to his own emotional and spiritual depression over the loss of Padme, the Jedi Order and his limbs.
  17. Sith-Bendu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 1
    Yoda never lost *any* part of his body, whereas Vader did. Therefore, the concentration of midichlorians in Yoda's body has remained constant & Vader's has not. It's like a ratio of sorts - the overall size of the being in question makes no difference. It's the concentration of midichlorians in that being that matters WRT force ability. When Vader lost his limbs, sustained damage to his organs / tissue / etc, he lost a substantial concentration of midichlorians (which he could never recover). Yoda, while smaller than Anakin, or even Vader's remaining "stump", never had a decrease in the concentration his of midichlorians.

    Does that make sense? The fact that Yoda is small & Vader is large really doesn't matter - so far as I've always understood it.
  18. Brobu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 2
    So Yoda is mud cake and Anakin is pavlova.

    Gotcha.
  19. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    I agree.

    I'm a fan of the emotional damage is more severe to the physical damage. After Mustafar Vader had lost everything. His family, his friends, and his will to live. After the suit, Vader had to start over. By start over I mean everything from learning to walk,learning to fight again with a saber, and to use the force again. This was a set back, but I don't believe his overall power was diminished. In the Dark Lord novel it states that the only reason that Vader doesn't kill himself is so he can learn from Sidious to become powerful enough to overthrow him. It also states that Vader still has the incredible power within him to overthrow the Emperor. It just needs to be released.

    The only reason that GL said that his power was diminished was because the CT duels are crap when compared to the PT duels and Lucas needed a reason for it. He also said that Obi Wan was less powerful cause he was old, which is totally contradictied by the PT with, Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious at the top of their game and old as hell.

    As far as Vader not being able to fully heal from his wounds and the addition of mechanical limbs....This is Star Wars people. The is no reason to believe that cybernetics in the Star Wars universe can't function as good if not better than organic ones. Thats one of the main reason's I liked Vader's character so much from th CT. Fact that he is a cyborg would give him many advantages against fully human opponents. For example; Superior stength, extreme durability to be able to take blaster bolts, lightsaber strikes, and even the ability to lose a limb and still be able to fight well, when sentient beings would be cripple by just being grazed with a saber. Also the computer like speed and reflexes which aren't that great of an advantage because he needs those reflexes to make up for the sheer wieght of the suit a cybernetics. Becasue of the wieght of the cybernetics and suit, Vader gets that robotic like movement with his stikes. Which in turn would appear slower because of the lack of fluidity.

  20. R2D2_gave_up_flying Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    Yep that's pretty much it.

    I thought the subject pretty much said it all, but that was assuming everyone recognized the Yoda quote...so if you didn't, sorry. Nevertheless, I'm glad DarthButt was here to create a more interesting discussion.

    To summarize, I agree with BleepsSweepsCreeps comments:
    "Clearly Lucas made these claims in order to justify the less than stellar duels of the first trilogy. I simply don't buy the fact that Vader was weaker while in the suit, or less mobile for that matter."

    and J_Gonn_Jinn took the words right out of my mouth:
    "the simple answer is the OT was made 1977-1983, The PT 1999-2005. Technology has changed therefore old men like christopher lee can be jumping around doing somersaults etc. In the old days the suit was heavy and there was no CGI. Lucas is making it worse by trying to make up explanations=D=

    Whoever said that if the OT was made today Vader would be doing somersaults and jumping around during the duels is quite right, same goes for Obi Wan, although to a lesser extent"

    Basically, I think any emphasis on the physical takes away from the original concept of the force.

    I think the original sabre fight could have been slower because the opponents were feeling out fluctuations in the force and in their opponents thoughts...isn't that possible?
    Or does everything have to be a "me too" Jackie Chan fight? Wheee...now I'll yawn.

    I thought Yoda fighting with a light saber was stupid and pathetic also, but that's just me. After his freakshow appearance in Phantom Menace (but better of course, due to CGI:rolleyes:), perhaps I should have expected the worst though.

    Anyway, thanks to everyone who was able to figure out what I meant and responded. Yes I do get ill about some of Lucas's inexplicable ca-ca but I wouldn't post at all if I didn't like some of what he'd done [face_peace]


  21. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But neither of them have been stranded on Tatooine for 2 decades and held back on their Jedi training like Obi-wan did.

    Your forgetting something Darth juggalo, it's not just the mechanical limbs that's slowing Vader down, it's the fact that he had his leftover body burnt to ashes and that he has to rely on a life support suit to stay alive. Cybernetics can never compensate for damaged lungs and burnt flesh which is why Vader can't perform like he used to when he had his organic body intact.
  22. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    Burnt flesh heals over time. His lungs are a different story.

    Although I don't see how his lungs would contribute to him being slower. Yes, he needs the suit to breathe for him but so what. As long as the suit is working in order his breathing should be a non issue.

    I'm sure the suit took a lot of geting used to, but I'm sure he did get used to it. Even in our world(Earth), People with artificial appenadges get used to them and are able to function normally again. I saw a man with only one artificial leg at a track by my house and he ran faster than almost everyone out there. With one leg!

    His burnt flesh and lungs have nothing to do with him being slower. His cybernetics are the only contributing factors to this.

    I feel like the advantages of having robotic appendages outwiegh their disadvantages. Even more so when talking about the Star Wars universe where the technology is almost unlimited.


    As far as Obi Wan being "held back" in his Jedi training on Tatooine. How do you know?

    Obi Wan was a master. Little learning was still needed. Meditation and Pratice were still needed but there is nothing that says he didn't pratice or meditate. He did have that remote droid that he had Luke train with on the Falcon. So I'm sure he could still practice with his lightsaber. Not to metion random run ins with Sand people and or thugs from the Tatooine cantinas that we do know he attended regularly after Mustafar.

    Although, now that I think about it. Was practice necessary? I mean Sidious hadn't even ignited his lightsaber in god knows how long before RotS and he could still fight well although I'll be the first to admit that he did look somewhat rusty with a saber.

    And before you say that he could've been training in private you must realize that he was the Supreme Chancellor. There was little he could do in private. Someone would've deffinately noticed the Supreme Chancellor of the republic sparing with a lightsaber.
  23. Sweetcurse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2004
    star 1
    It is unclear whether the OT duels would be different if they were shot now. To assume they would be acrobatic too, is just that, assumption. The facts are that the OT duels are slower that PT duels but the CREATOR of this whole thing (Lucas) has given an explanation. He says that all duels in the OT have crippling aspects that make them slower and less spectacular such as:

    Old Ben who hasn't fought in years and spent all the time meditating or something, which is documented by Vader's remark "your powers are weak old man,"

    A crippled Vader, yes people, he IS crippled and incapacitated, he lost ALL his limbs, his capacity to breathe by himself, and possibly the majority of his organs as well, not much flesh left after that if you think about it, no legs, no organs pretty much only leaves the head intact and that one is severly disturbed emotionally.

    And a young, half assed trained, farm boy from a back water planet.

    So here is Lucas, 30 years later, trying his best to give us an explanation for the differences and all we can see is "plot holes" and contradictions. The theory of a weakened Vader is the creator's explanation and that must be good enough, he came up with the whole thing after all. The fact that some people are unable to understand his reason fully doesn't make those explanations less valid. And to assume that we know more about SW than Lucas does is preposterous and arrogant. If any of us has seen SW a million times, Lucas has seen it a trillion and knows his movies inside and out. It irks me to no end that people assume he doesn't know the movies he came up with. Do any of you even know the process in making a movie? I'm sure it is enough to memorize just about every little detail in them. Also, Lucas doesn't choose to contradict or ignore things, he makes up his mind, gives us an explanation and we either accept it or not. And you know, his reasons are good enough for me.

    Why is Vader weaker by losing flesh? Well, his ability to channel the force is dimished. The more midichlorians you have the more Force you produce (Yoda: life creates it, meaning midis, makes it grow). So having less flesh stuffed with midis does reduce your abilities, specially if all you have left is pretty much just a head. Also, midis are neccessary to explain the Force's link to life and its hereditary aspect. Midis obviously then do not function in a per cell ratio manner as some have implied, but rather on straight up numbers. A person who has 2 cells in his body with 20,000 midis each IS more powerful than a person with one cell stuffed with 20,00 midis. This is the explanation and it is a good one if you are willing. 20K + 20K is more than 20K. Annie had trillions of midis coursing through him, but in the suit he is reduced to a few thousand perhaps. Also, losing his arm in AOTC did diminish his connection, just not significantly, that is all. We can't compare losing half an arm to losing ALL limbs plus most organs by getting burned. Whichever way you see Vader, he is in a respirator, his bodily functions are hampered and his limbs attached to old and burned flesh. The Force does move through inanimate objects, but it is clear that only life can comune with it reciprocally. It is a simple and brilliant explanation.

    Grieveious, I admit I was initially thrown off by his agility in light of the Vader explanation. But I refused to believe Lucas simply "missed" this. Rather,I look for an explanation, and that was given, not entirely in film sadly. Grievious is not force sensitive, meaning he has a greater freedom to make his body fully cybernetic. Annie on the other hand is trying to hold on to every piece of flesh he can. This will inevitably hamper him physically, as well as making him very susceptible to lightning, but helps him keep a connection to the force, something he still values more than pure "technological terror," in his own words, that improved cybernetics can offer. He is willing to sacrifice mobility and agility in order to keep a connection to what makes him truly special, The Force, not cyber
  24. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
  25. Master_Mace_Windows Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2005
    star 1
    I think I know how to unite all theories.

    1.-Vader HAS weakened
    2.-Vader moves slow
    3.-Vader IS more experienced

    Maybe Vader WAS in fact weakened, but since now he has become a smart@ss he can overcome his hindrances and to stimulate his intellect to fight accordingly. Therefore he would still own the PT characters. He had to become intelligent and mature out of necessity.

    The same necessity that drives the course of EVOLUTION and ADAPTATION.

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