Just because your the chosen one dosent mean your the best or strongest!

Now many have come to think that the strongest has to be anakin because he is the chosen one, but when you think about it yoda was must stronger and powerful, and wiser (adding that to a battle)-- BUt now look at it- sidoius wasn't expecting vader to turn on him. Vader didnt even plan it, it was a moment thing (ROTJ) seeing his son in trouble he helped him, and that ended the sith!

The chosen one was to bring balance to the force no to be ths stronest!

Because if darth vader was the strongest he would of killed luke,( many can say that thats becuase he was hurt on mustafar ROTS)- that is true but if anakin were to fight luke as a human, not in the suit would of he won?

then you may say no darth vader got stonger after ROTS because he couldnt beat obiwan then but could beat him in ANH, which is only because of obiwans age, but then why could yoda fight well being older than 900 years

so Darth Vader in the suit was stronger than darth vader in the flesh.

Was sidious just trying to lure him by saying "i for see you wil be the greatest jedi ever" (something along those lines) -- or was he really telling him the truth.

Becasue in a outright duel anakin would lose to

1- Obiwan (mustafar)
2- Luke (ROTJ)- maybe he got weaker but that is he got stonger as i spoke of earlier
3- yoda - he never really fought him but yoda was seen controlling lightning, and anakin wasnt. when obiwan said to sent me to kill palpatine not anakin, yoda didnt say - to fight anakin stron enough i am not, he said to fight this sith lord (sidious) you are not... implying that he(yoda, and obiwan on that matter) was strong enough to kill anakin
4- mace, mace won the fight with sidious- obiwan wasnt strong enough to fight sidious (yoda said) and obiwan beat anakin, clearly mace could beat anakin


so i believe that anakin wasnt the strongest jedi but was among strong jedi... he was strongm but not the strongest -

The chosen one wasnt to bew strong but was to bring balance to the force
a point that is mis interpreted often.

 

EDIT: I linked to the wrong link in this thread. Also I want to re-open this and see where the discussion goes. Here's what I've already posted:

 

I disagree. The high midchlorian count reveals that Anakin is a fluke to the natural order of things concerning potential force users. This 'fluke' is the basis of the belief that he's the chosen one in the first place. This reveals the nature of the chosen one, according to prophetic lore, as one with great potential power.

He is consistantly more gifted than others of his rank in the order. Untrained, his reflexes far surpass any non force user and allows him to do what is normally impossible for any of his species: podracing. As a padawan his skill is equal to that of a knight. As a knight his skill is equal to that of a master.

Sidious makes a direct effort and invests over 13 years in molding and manipulating Anakin towards a dark will and demeaner because he senses the raw power potential that Anakin has. By all rights, Anakin was always more powerful and more gifted in the ways of the force than his age should have allowed for. It was this imbalance of power for his age that partly caused his fall and defeat in both his path and his conflict with Obi Wan, because his ability never allowed humilty to teach him wisdom.

Regardless if Anakin was the most powerful, the nature of the one chosen is clearly identified with being inherently gifted above all others.

 

I agree with this post, and couldn't have said it better myself.

Vader could have killed Luke in ESB and had the opportunity to, but he didn't want him dead, he wanted him to rule the galaxy with him (as he did Padme in ROTS) I think Luke became as strong as Vader in the year between ESB and ROTJ because Vader lost some of his midichlorian count because of the battle on Mustafar, and because Luke was his son and had a high midichlorian count anyway.

 

Does that prophecy actualy say that the chosen one would be strong..

it is possible that it does, but the prophecy that is mentioned in the movie dosent..

anakin had a high midiclorian count, but does that mena he will be strong or does it mean he will just be able to use the force well, IF he uses it to the full?

 

I understand what you're getting at. The films don't actually say his strength is the greatest of all. But this is because saying the obvious is redundent and everyone's actions around Anakin alude to his power and purpose within the subtext of the script. This is true not only in the PT but in the OT as well. But if it's proof you seek then examine Obi Wan's final words to Anakin before he leaves for Utapai. That dialogue alone rests my case.

 

Perfectly said.

I think this was why Lucas came up with midi-chlorians and had Obi Wan categorically stating that Anakin had a higher count than Yoda. If Anakin had merely been "strong" in the Force, we could have easily believed the characters overstated his power or that he was strong but not AS strong as Yoda; with the quantative nature of midis, however, we know different. This makes Anakin's eventual fate on Mustafar all the more tragic: we lament the squandering of potential. When I came out of the cinema, this was what my brother took from the film. We're both fans - but he hasn't looked into the saga like I have and he still came away with this feeling. Lucas did good.

Of course, on top of that, Darth Vader himself - not to mention his relationship with the Emperor - is now properly contextualised. Before the prequels, these things felt arbitrary. I would sometimes ask myself: why was Vader around, why was he, above every other Force user, so significant, and why would a cyborg, an ex Jedi with half his body missing now on mobile life support, be so important to the Emperor? The prequels gave the answers. Anakin never reached his potential; the Vader suit is a constant reminder of his failure. In time, he MIGHT have equalled or surpassed Yoda's mastery of the Force, but because Anakin never quieted his mind or trusted in the greater fabric of the universe, he never came anywhere near Yoda. Yet he was growing in strength all the time and this is why Sidious snagged him. Despite being Obi Wan's junior by ten years, Anakin was more than capable in their final confrontation (until his arrogance got the better of him). Of course, I've muddied my point there: mastery with the Force is about more than one's prowess in combat (in fact, true mastery of the Force has NOTHING to do with combat). Anakin grew too quickly and fell too quickly. With the capacity for greatness comes the potential to fall greatly. And did Anakin fall.

 

I appreciate the support.

I'm not sure I agree fully with your post though. I feel that Vader is still the most powerful even in the suit but he can't; or won't; take out the Emperor because of his need to learn the secret he was seduced by. Once he has the secret he can take the Emperor out with either direct conflict or secrecy and sabotage.

I think the only reason we as audience members see Vader as weak now is because of the lackluster quality of the duels in the OT compared to the mastery level in the PT, particularly the swordplay of Nic Gillard, Ray Park, Hayden Christensen and Ewen McGregor. With the introduction of General Grievous, it's plain to see that cyborg components and limbs have little to no effects on saber use or mobility, and he wasn

 

Hmmm...

Sidious could deliberately have limited his power when he put that suit on him. Well, not his power (afterall, that's what Sidious wants to draw on) but his ability to lash out and attack others. Vader is still a pitbull - but now he's muzzled. It's a nice security investment when your apprentice is ROYALLY p***ed off and is planning to kill you.

 

I have also thought about the idea of the chosen one...
I think it's strange that the force would create such a being as Anakin at all... i mean, why for God's sake not make a sensible being like Yoda or OBW be the chosen one?

Anakin WAS very powerful, and he had a great potential. But a great potential does not mean everything. Many young athletes with great potentials have destroyed their career because of their great potential - they think they're God - much like Anakin does. It's neither healthy nor is it going to enhance your strenghts.

I doubt if Anakin would have ever reached Yoda's capabilities as a Jedi. Perhaps he could have surpassed Yoda's raw power, but I don't think he would ever gain such a knowledge of the force, such a refinement in the Jedi arts, and such a wisdom that Yoda clearly inhibited.

Anakin was a victim of his own potential

 

A thought: Anakin's rashness was actually key to defeating Sidious, and creating a new Jedi Order. In hindsight, it's obvious that the Jedi order and the Republic were both severely flawed-they're using what amounts to a slave army to enforce supposedly "democratic ideals", for God's sake-and had to go. Sidious was the cause of all this obviously, but that doesn't make the Jedi or the Republic right in doing so. They both had to go. Note that Obi-Wan and Yoda never stop to consider that the Jedi and the Republic were wrong-the only thing they think about even after Order 66 is "save the Republic!"

As for defeating Sidious-again, Vader/Anakin doesn't act the way Sidious (or before, Obi-Wan) thinks he would. And saves the galaxy.

A more rational Jedi would have killed Sidious in ROTS, and the problems would have remained in the Jedi and the Republic.

 

Yea ..... the real problem here is that the Jedi took orders from the Republic. If the Jedi had been an entirely independent society who acted on their own sense of goodwill in whatever conflict at the time, none of this would have happened. I feel it the influence of the Republic that caused the order to trust less in their feelings than on the information given them. Ofcourse this degeneration occured over a 1000 years.

 

Because the Chosen One is concieved by midichlorians he has the potential to be the strongest. He isn't automatically the strongest at any given age because he needs to mature and realize some of that potential.

But to answer the thread's question, because you are the Chosen One you have the ability to be the best or strongest.

 

Bu the word ability is the key word here. To have the ability doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen... just look at athletes, they may have the ability, but somewhere they are flawed - they become arrogant or something...

 

I challenge anyone to point out where either the "chosen one" or midichlorians are associated with strength or power anywhere in the films.

Because they aren't. The association is very clearly made in TPM that the midichlorians give you the ability to "hear" the Will of the Force- if you learn to quiet your mind and listen, you will hear them.

 

Darth Vader was way more powerful before he was put in the suit.
That's the point of the midi-chlorians subplot. Midi-chlorians didn't created Anakin. Qui-Gon really doesn't know what created Anakin because it's not his place to know what created Anakin. Midi-chlorians create all life in the Star Wars universe not just Anakin.
Here this from Star Wars Insider Issue 45
"Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are really necessary in order for cells to divide and probably had something to do with the beginnings of life, and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature. Life could not exist without it, and it's really a way of saying that we have hundreds of little creatures that live with us and without them we'd all died. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us, and we are necessary for them. And I'm using them in the metaphor to say that society is the same way: we must all get along with each other. And the planet is the same way: we must treat the other creatures on this planet with respect; otherwise, the planet will die."---Lucas

This quote clearly shows that Lucas believes in evolution to some degree but he has stated that he also believes in God, however, he claims he does not know what that God is, what it wants, or what it looks like. Perhaps Lucas feels that God used evolution to create life here on Earth. The truth is the theory of evolution has to be taken on faith just like believing in God has to be taken on faith.

Back to Star Wars. The Jedi are just hung up on midi-chlorians. They have tried to explain everything with science. Which is a good thing, but the truth is science can never explain everything. Somethings just have to be taken on faith. That is why Yoda did the 180 degree turn in The Empire Strikes Back. Yoda has a very different philosophy in the PT than he has in the OT. When Luke ask, "Why?" Yoda replies, "There is no why."
FAITH.

The Jedi never believed in Anakin because they have lost their faith. Palpatine believed in Anakin when all the Jedi did not believe in Anakin.

Something is guiding the characters of Star Wars and that something creating Anakin. That something gave Obi-Wan the power to defeat Darth Vader by severing his remaining limbs so that Darth Vader's midi-chlorian count would be drastically lowered so the Darth Vader could not kill Darth Sidious before the time is right.

Darth Vader in the suit is not more powerful than Darth Vader before the suit. Darth Vader is 80% the Sith that Darth Sidious is and that's the point of the midi-chlorian subplot.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."---Lucas--Vanity Fair

See this is typical ambiguity from Lucas. Notice Lucas only gives you just enough information to make you think this paragraph is all about Darth Sidious' desires, however, in ROTS it is Darth Vader that wants to overthrow the Emperor and this paragraph is really about what Darth Vader wanted and why he can't get it, but Lucas is always just playing a head game. I didn't pick up on this Lucas quote for almost three months after I read it.

Whatever created Anakin also guided Anakin to the Dark Side, however, it needed to curb Darth Vader's power because Darth Vader would of became so p

 

One of the issues that make this an interesting topic to debate is that we don't see DV/AnAkin in his most dangerous form. In ROTS Anakin has all of the brute strength, in Force terms of all but a select few of the Masters of the Jedi Council. Interestingly, as far as this discussion is concerned, Yoda does not feel that Obi Wan is able to confront Palpatine, but is capable of confronting Anakin. Given Yoda's belief, I would suggest that Palpatine, Yoda, and Mace would have an edge on Anakin at the end of ROTS, remember Anakin has yet to learn any Sith Techniques and never learns (or at least we never see him use...)Sith Lightning. I would argue by the end of ROTS Anakin has an edge on Obi Wan in terms of raw power, but given the evenness of their confrontation at Mustafar it could be said that they were even or a slight edge might be given to Obi. Keep in mind that Anakin, at this point in his development is only as far into his Jedi training as Obi was at the end of PM. This is all the more remarkable when one considers that Anakin started his training late in life by Jedi Terms.

I believe that Anakin peaks as Vader between ROTS and ANH. After Mustafar, he will never be the Sith he could have been, but he becomes more powerful than he was at the end of ROTS. Palpatine was, I would bet, both disappointed (hence his excitement at Luke as a Sith prospect) and relieved (Palpatine would have to be concerned that if Vader met his full potential, Palpatine might not have been able to control him). Interestingly neither Yoda, nor Obi come out of exile to confront him at this time.

By the time of ANH Vader is a disappointing, but still very dangerous, relic of a bygone era. He was an aged cripple and Obi was a wise, but clearly past his prime Jedi. As he continues to age, he is in ESB and ROTJ Vader is still very capable of using the force, but is clearly an effort. Despite this deterioration, as Lucas states in the commentaries, Vader had long been able to defeat Palpatine, he simply did have the confidence that he could do it alone, hence his play to Luke.

 

I challenge anyone to point out where either the "chosen one" or midichlorians are associated with strength or power anywhere in the films.

Lucas said that if Anakin hadn't been injured he would have been DOUBLE the power of Sidious. If that's the case, than being the Chosen One does mean you are going to be super powerful.

 

Anakin could have been the most powerful person in the galaxy. Had he been born in the Republic, identified, never known his mother or developed a relationship with Padme, and trained directly under Qui-Gon in his youth, he would have become unstoppable. I would say that, by the time he reached his 30's, he would have been on par with Yoda, Mace and Sidious. Likewise, had Palpatine recruited him in TPM, and spent ten years training him (replacing Maul with him, and not using Dooku), by the time of ROTS he would be strong enough to walk into the Jedi Council chamber and clean house.

 

Well, for starters that's not in the films.
Secondly, if Lucas does state that, then I don't believe he draws a causal connection between Anakin's power and his midichlorian count. (He does talk about the Dark Side being a source of power though.)

 

That's why I posted this. To show you that midi-chlorians are directly related to strength

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no." ---George Lucas--Vanity Fair--February--2005

No, it was not stated word for word in the movie that midi-chlorians are directly related to strength, however, in TPM that is why Obi-Wan is shocked, stunned and amazed that Anakin's midi-chlorian is off the chart and way higher than even the powerful Jedi Master Yoda.

 

A quote that says absolutely nothing about midichlorians? It doesn't even hint at their relevance.

An interesting choice, and not exactly a convincing one. I think you're seeing what you want to see there, dude.

Again, nothing to connect them to power anywhere. Not explicitly, not thematically, and not in any way that I can see.

Keep trying though.

 

Lucas himself says Anakin is going to be DOUBLE the power of Sidious. No other character would even be close to that. So what does Anakin have that no one else has?

Oh yea, he's the CHOSEN ONE.

 

I totally agree-- Anakin is NOT the strongest, by all means.

Now don't get me wrong, Anakin COULD be the best and strongest, except for all his 'shortcomings' that drag him down-- I mean, he can't think clearly with all that Padme junk going on in his head and he will NEVER stop and think a situation through...

Obi-Wan is definitely the "ultimate jedi master" as the novel of ROTS said... he may not have all the midiclorians but he certainly uses all he has to the fullest, quite unlike anakin...

If he'd just let go of Padme and his mother, he'd ROCK though. But he didn't. Which is a good thing, or there'd be no episodes 4,5, and 6!!!

response?

 

Being the chosen one gives you the highest potential. It doesnt automatically give you ultimate force powers and make you the strongest you have to earn it, if that was the case Ep. 1 Anakin wouldve been the most powerful force user in histroy. Of course considering anakins max potential is twice sidious, im sure he was at least halfway there, to make him at least equal. Anakin probably was the stongest but he didnt have the best mastery of the force and thus couldnt utilize his power to his max capabilities during ROTS when he is at his pinnacle of power.