Just because your the chosen one dosent mean your the best or strongest!

Exactly, well said!

 

That's really the best logic you've got? Well, by that kind of flimsy reasoning blue lightsabers are the source of true power, and I can prove it; nobody with a blue lightsaber ever kills their opponent in a duel. Obi Wan loses to Maul until he switches to a greeen one, Dooku beats Anakin and Obi Wan with their blue sabers, Anakin only kills Dooku when he takes his red saber, Vader kills Obi Wan, Vader beats Luke. There you go- no, it' not backed up anywhere by anything other than circumstantiual evidence, there;s nothing in the films to even hint at a connection and there's no "word for word" quote to support it but- unlike your theory- the evidence to support it is all in the FILMS, and it doesn't require throwing in irrelevant quotes from interviews to construct a basic explanation of the theory.

So why isn't any connection even hinted at anywhere in the films? Why has Lucas never hinted at a connection in any of his interviews?

Why does Lucas talk about what makes Anakin powerful on the DVD commentary to Attack of the Clones and says that it's about the Dark Side, and doesn't bother to mention midichlorians?

If it's the reason Anakin is important to him, why doesn't the film establish that Palpatine is aware of Anakin being the Chosen One, or anything about his midichlorian count? (It does hint that he knows of a connection between the midichlorians and Anakin's conception, but- again- there's nothing about midichlorians being the source of power. But there is the implication of someone with more power than either of them having existed before them. Another Chosen... er.. "One"?)

Do you think that the Jedi choose their recruits because they are attuned to beiong guided by the Force, or because they are seeking power?

It just doesn't add up here at all. Not only is there nothing in the film to hint at a connection between midichlorians and power, but there's nothing in any George Lucas DVD commentary or interview or book that I'm aware of (and I can promise you, I'm aware of quite a few.) I don't read the EU, but I've actually been asking this question since 1999, and nobody has refuted my points with anything from the EU either, so I'm going to assume that there's nothing there to support the argument either. (Not that I'd put any stock in it if there were, seeing as it's essentially licenced fanfic...)

All I'm asking is someone to back up their theory with some evidence. ONE quote from Lucas that associates midichlorians with power. One example of the film that associates midichlorians with power. Just one. Not something about Anakin's importance, but something about midichlorian's importance.

Seriously; five years I've been asking this question. I'm not exaggerating here. In five years, the best answer I've had is that Obi Wan is surprised by the reading, therefore it's got something to do with power, which is a weak, weak argument.

Qui Gon says that they "speak to us, telling us of the Will of the Force", because that's what they are about. The Force guides the Jedi. The Jedi choose recruits who are best guided by the Force. The point of the "Chosen One" is that he's incredibly gifted with the ability to be guided by the Force- so gifted that he doesn't even need to be trained by the Jedi for it to guide him. But he istrained, and that gives him the power which corrupts him, and nobody can make him "quiet his mind" and listen- he has to do it for himself.

(Didn't you ever wonder why TPM spends so much time showing us that the Force has an influence over Anakin, but Anakin has no influence over the Force? Why even in a moment of crisis, Anakin can't grab the out of reach cable with the Force, but uses a magnetic device instead? Why training Anakin to give him this pow

 

A very insightful post.

This should be added to the pile:

When Qui Gon is asked what Anakin's exceptionally high midi-chlorian count means, he humbly replies, "I don't know". I-DON'T-KNOW. It's not clear what advantage having so many midi-chlorians actually gives Anakin - but it clearly means something. Qui Gon has hit on a one in a billion find and cannot give it up. Yet I feel the high midi-chlorian count implicitly connotes a supreme affinity with the Force that may be brought out with training: this is why Anakin displays exceptional prowess in the film (pod racing/starfighter piloting) and why Obi Wan contextualises Anakin's count by exclaiming it as "higher than Master Yoda!". I'm not sure how you could look at it any other way.

 

If you want to talk about "silly ass Star Wars", then you're probably better off doing it in another more frivolous forum, but it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of in-depth analysis and discussion that this forum was set up for, and it's about the topic that this thread was started to discuss- "Just because your the chosen one dosent mean your the best or strongest!"

I'd appreciate it if you would avoid posts that deride me and my post and pointlessly bash the films as "silly Star Wars." If you've got a criticism of the films then that's fine- post away. If you don't think that my point of view is valid, then please go ahead and explain why. I'm certainly not refusing you the right to interpret the saga however you want to- I'm trying to explain why I see it differently, backing it up with relevant examples from the films and inviting anyone with a conflicting point of view to do the same. But if you want to talk about me and my opinions, then I'd much rather you to do it privately and not in a public forum, because I'm not about to start trading insults.

But that makes no sense. Anakin's midichlorian count is very clearly a concentration, so how does it change when he loses limbs? It's like a beer that's 5% alcohol- it remains the same 5% whether you're talking about a bottle, a barrel or a whole brewery.

"Judge me by my size, do you?"

 

Nice spin, but you are the one that insulted me first by accusing me of being short sighted. Here I copy and pasted it from your original post to me.

Nah, accusing someone of being ignorant isn't an insult. Oh and here's where you baited me.

Yeah, but then you try and come off as the guardian of right and wrong in the Saga forum. Please.

Yeah, that's why I said you can buy it or not. I don't care.
Lucas said Anakin could have been extremly power before Obi-Wan cut off his limbs. EXTREMLY POWERFUL. What is different about Vader after Obi-Wan cuts off his limbs? The bone cells, muscle cells and skin cells are gone. Qui-Gon told Anakin that midi-chlorians are in every cell of all living things. Those midi-chlorians are gone because the cells they were in are gone.

Real world physics do not exist in Star Wars so equating beer bottles, beer barrels, and whole beer breweries is pointless because Star Wars does not adhere to real world physics because Star Wars is not real.

You can rationlize Star Wars all you want, but I'm out of it. I know why you think midi-chlorians don't have anything to do with how powerful these characters are. I've heard it all before. I even heard the Yoda theory before, but in the end it has been clearly confirmed that after Obi-Wan schooled Darth Vader on Mustafar, Darth Vader aint about nothin. That's why Luke wipes the floor with him in ROTJ. That's why Palpatine wants Luke to replace him.



Here is the definition of midi-chlorians from theforce.net encyclopedia:
this species of microscopic organism was known to the Jedi Knights as a symbiotic creature that exists within the cells of every living creature. Life in the galaxy was dependent upon the midi-chlorians, although the exact genesis of the microscopic midi-chlorians was unknown. There was no pattern which dictated the concentration of midi-chlorians in a being's make-up, but a higher count of midi-chlorians in a being's cells allowed them to touch the Force. As the count increased, so did the being's ability to contact and control the Force, but true mastery of the Force could only come from intense concentration and study. Thus, the Jedi Knights devoted themselves to the study and control of the Force, and developed techniques that could detect high concentrations of midi-chlorians in young infants. During the last years of the Old Republic, some Jedi began to believe that the relationship between midi-chlorians and the Force might actually be the opposite of t

 

I asked for a connection between midichlorians and power; you posted something that doesn't mention either, claiming it was relevant, so I'm sorry if you took it personally- it certainly wasn't intended that way- but I stand by that comment.

Where did I call you ignorant?

That's baiting? I'm honestly sorry if you found that offensive for some reason, but I thought I was clearly inviting further debate. I asked you to keep trying to back up your point. I would love to be proven wrong on this one. I would love to see some evidence that this association is more than just chinese whispers. It would give me faith in my fellow fans.

So the line "his cells have the highest concentration of midichlorians I have ever seen in a life form" is utterly meaningless? The blood test in which Qui Gon gets his midichlorian count from a drop of blood is meaningless?

In short, anything which happens not to fit in with your interpretation of the films is meaningless?

Well, that's fair enough, if that's what makes you happy. I just don't understand why anyone would want to build an interpretation of a set of films that has no basis in teh films themselves. It seems strange to me.

Please enlighten me. Why do I think "midichlorians don't have anything to do with how powerful these characters are"? I mean besides the fact that there's no evidence to support it, because it looks to me like you're implying I have some sort of hidden agenda here. So what is it supposed to be? Where am I supposed to be coming from on this?

(And what's the "Yoda theory"?)

Oh, I agree with that point. After Anakin's overconfident attack leaves him burnt and broken, Anakin is a truly broken man, both physically and spiritually. He's killed the woman he loves. He's lost everything. He's a physical wreck, a shell of a man imprisoned in a life support suit with nothing keeping him going apart from his hate.

I don't see what that's got to do with midichlorians though.

Yet he is still the Chosen One. He still fulfils the prophecy. He's still important enough to Obi Wan for him to sacrifice his life rather than take Anakin's in ANH. And he's still got the highest concentration of midichlorians ever seen in a life form. You seem to be overlooking what many say is the central storyline of the saga because it doesn't fit in with your "source of power" interpretation of midichlorians here.

That's a lovely bit of fanfiction. Do you know who wrote it?
Clue: it wasn't George Lucas. It wasn't even Lucasfilm.

But in the spirit of sharing, here's another quote from the

 

So by your point of view Darth Maul is as powerful as Yoda right? After all, Maul is a practicioner of the dark side so that means he's the best? Anyone that uses the dark side is automatically on Yoda and Sidious' level? That is ridiculous, Anakin at age 22 was already being mentioned as the most powerful Jedi ever. His potential was DOUBLE that of Sidious', there is no other explanation for that kind of ability other than the fact that he's the Chosen One.

 

Did I say that the Dark Side automatically makes you more powerful than any Jedi?

#Re-reads post#

Nope. Neither did Lucas in the quote I typed out for you. So that looks like a straw man argument.

 

You gave me that Lucas quote to explain why Anakin was so powerful. True, the dark side did make Anakin powerful but he was already powerful before that. Being the Chosen One gave him the greatest potential, so it DOES mean something in terms of power. How else do you explain a 22 year old on Yoda's level?
(They are both level 9's)

 

Anakin is the chosen one but that does not make him the best fighter ever because jedi masters like Obi-wan, Mace, Palpatine as fighters are a lttle more better fighters because they have no emotions in their way, Anakin may have more force powers then most of the jedi but he has not learned to keep his emotions under control.He would have been the best fighter but he never got there. Anakin is meant to distroy the sith but not with his power. It was his destany to lose agenist Obi-wan and he was destend to destroy the sith with out his power.

 

It was Vader's power that enabled him to destroy the remaining Jedi, it was his power that destroyed OBW-K-OBW knew he couldn't win, his powers were "weak" compared to Vader's. It was Vader's power that was able to stop rapid blaster fire with his hand through the force that killed so many Jedi during order 66. It was Vader's power that destoryed Palpatine.
Vader was the embodiment of anger, fear, hatred, evil, and above all else POWER.

 

No, It was not Vaders power that destroyed Obi-wan, he sacrifised himself so the others could escape. George Lucas said that they were two old jedi so in lightsaber skills they were even. Vaders power are weaker then he used to be because he lost his limbs and got burned Vader thought that "his powers were weak" because he thought his study in the force has ended long ago but he was wrong.


The clone troopers were with him so they were not firing at vader they were only firing at the jedi.



Vader did not destroy Palpatine with his power he was weaker then Palpatine, He destroyed Palpatine by grabing Palpatine from behind when he was off gaurd and threw him down the reactor core at the death star.

 

Just a little thought I had about midichlorians and potential. I'll use simple, hypothetical numbers to discuss this. Let's say Anakin's Midichlorian count is 10. Let's say, for the case of arguement that Yoda's Midichlorian count is 5. Now, Anakin is human and even endowed with the force probably won't live past say....170 years old. Yoda lives to be 800+ years of age. Does time for training count into the power equation at all? Does 600 years to learn and train trump a higher midichlorian count? We see Anakin get defeated by an implied lesser midichlorian counted Obi-Wan. I would have to say that Anakin's overconfidance played part of it, but also his inexperience. Obi-Wan probably had 20 years on him as far as Jedi training.

The bottom line is, could a "6" on a midichlorian scale have more potential than a "10" if he can live and train 700 years longer? Does the 10 indicate a faster rate of learning and achieving potential or a more abosolute limit to the power that could be obtained?

I ask this question as I would of real world "IQ". IQ is our measure of being able to handle complex ideas. Would a 180 IQ being learn and understand things quicker than a 100 IQ being, or would the 180 IQ being be capable of learning and understandings things that a 100 IQ being could not comprehend if given an infinite (Or if infinity presents too many problems) an extremely longer period of time.

Carnage

 

Hell yeah. For one thing, we know that the Dark Side is a quicker path to power, but there's no reason to think that there's some sort of ceiling to what can be achieved through it, other than it's self-destructive and consuming nature. For another, there's more to power than facing off in a fight. When Yoda faces Dooku, he displays a greater mastery over the Force than Dooku, but because of his restraint (assuming that if he can catch and throw back lightning, he could shoot it if he wanted) he doesn't defeat him. Palpatine doesn't get all his political power through manipulating the Force, but through manipulating people.

I think the strongest defining moments of "Force-power" comes from Yoda facing Palpatine and Anakin facing Obi Wan, when they all are sent flying backwards from the explosion of energies, implying equivalent levels of power and control. That's now what wins either battle.

 

"The force is strong in my family."

Do the math

 

Yes good point--

Just like density.. if you have a brick with just say 5cm^3/g -- i think that is how you put it with the cubic centimeters -- but the point is that if you break the brick into 5,000,000 pieces it will still be 5 density- just like anakin is < 20,000 chop him up: anakin < 20,000 -- that would mean that the suit would not alter his knowledge and use of the force, and that his power that he had in the suit is what i would have been if he were not in the suit.

 

In the episode 4 DVD commenteries George Lucas said that it was a battle between two old jedi so in lightsaber skills they were equel. Obi-wan sacrificed himself to let the others escape he could have kept on fighting Darth Vader and he could have won. Darth Vader's powers got weaker because he is more machine then man, if Obi-wan won he and Luke and Lea would have to fight all of the strom troopers and there were too much of them. On the offical site it sayes Obi-wan "saw a chance to bring Anakin back to the light side so Obi-wan probilly wanted Luke to fight Vader to save him and Obi-wan probilly thought it would be better for Yoda to train Luke.


He used the force to block the lasers from Han any jedi can learn that as long as they get more experiance.



No Vader did not use his power to destroy Palpatine because George Lucas said that his powers are weaker. Darth Vader grabed Palpatine from behind when he was not looking and threw him down at the reactor
core at the death star.

 

It was this imbalance of power for his age that partly caused his fall and defeat in both his path and his conflict with Obi Wan, because his ability never allowed humilty to teach him wisdom.

I disagree. I believe that Anakin's "imbalance of power" played a strong part in how the others conceived him. Palpatine saw him as some kind of plan that would guarantee the strength of the Sith Order for years to come (note his conversation with Yoda). The Jedi Order viewed him as a threat - an unknown entity that might be beyond their control, which would account for their questionable handling of him. Both Palpatine and the Jedi Order's reactions to Anakin probably led to problems for Anakin. But I believe that this was only a part of Anakin's problem, not all of it.

By the way, both the Sith and the Jedi Orders also had a problem with dealing with their own humility and wisdom.

 

Hey Some Random Nerd I was reading Terry Brooks' novel titled The Phantom Menace that is based on a screenplay and story by George Lucas and I came across this little paragraph on page 216:

There was a shocked silence this time. Qui-Gon Jinn was suggesting the impossible, that the boy was conceived not by human contact, but by the essence of all life, by the connectors to the Force itself, the midi-chlorians. Comprising collective consciousness and intelligence, the midi-chlorians formed the link between everything living and the Force.

 

Other than you saying you disagree, I don't see how anything you said contradicts or disputes what I've said. In fact you feel the same way I do based on what you wrote. The gross amount of power Anakin had at his disposal for his uncommonly young age is partly what caused his fall. Yoda for example never waivered because he had 800 years to learn as he grew in the force.

Anakin's tale is somewhat like that episode of the twilight zone where the kid tells all the adults what to do because all he has to do is snap his fingers and they die. The child is a spoiled brat and fully corrupted. Anakin would not have fallen if he hadn't been consistantly misguided by Palpatine's constant massaging of Anakin's ego.

One thing we do disagree on is the Jedi sense of humility and wisdom. Wisdom was demonstrated many times. Obi Wan does not exceed his mandate. The council chooses not to train Anakin despite the signs of his chosen one heritage because of the tried and true practice of not training Jedi who are too old. Yoda gives sound advice on several occasions and Mace does not allow the Jedi to become hostages nor does he grant the rank of Master to one who is too immature while maintaining the integrity of the ranking system within the Jedi Order.

Humility is demonstrated in their day to day walk. They wear clothes similar to what a humble farmer might wear and even though they have raw power to dominate their non force powered co inhabitants of the galaxy, they instead choose to serve the will of those lesser beings rather than exploit their weakness and rise as dictators. Wisdom and humility are the strongest traits of the Jedi. They only lost because their sworn enemy was in hiding and playing the puppet master behind the scenes. Anakin was only corrupted because he was targeted for corruption from a very young age and by one who seemed to be a good and decent being.

 

Good point. He definitely had more potential and more outright strength in the Force, but it wasn't polished to what it could be.

1. It's debatable, but Anakin would most likely kill Luke if he wasnt in the suit.Luke trained for a bit more than 3 months in total while Anakin trained for years. I mean, it's weird when you look into fortellings of the future, but the only way Anakin could/would put an end to the Sith is if he got in the suit. Then he would be too strong and would kill his son.

2. Vader beat Obi in ANH beause Obi let him win.

3. Stronger physically yes, but in Force power, no. He has to devote a large part of the Force to help his body heal.

Good topic, though.