Just people? (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Muke_Skywalker, Apr 4, 2001.

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  1. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    I finished Conquest.... And much like Anakin Solo I have been on an adventure of discovery and came out of it somewhat changed in my perceptions.

    The "Yuuzhan" Vong.

    When the series started I felt they were kind of run of the mill heavies except for Nom Anor who was a cliche ridden yet still very cool bad guy. I didnt think they were all that interesting aside from their bio tech in Vector Prime.

    But you better beleive I was scared of them.

    And then Dark Tide came out and we got Shedao Shai who was a really cool and scary villain and we got more Vong and they were scarier than before.

    They were like swarms of insects overtaking their enemies. Unstoppable. Merciless.

    We learned a little about their culture, that the Vong in VP were really Politicians and that they invaded the GFFA to gain some advantage among Vong society.

    But the Vong of DT were not mere politicians. They were warriors with their own code of honor.

    They were slightly more interesting and their cool factor went up and up until..

    The destruction of Ithor and the public shaming of Corran Horn.

    Then my mind was made up.

    I hated them and wanted every single one of them uprooted from every single planet they landed on and I wanted them killed.

    Every single Vong alive should have been killed.

    They were a cancer. An infection. The cure? Wiping them out.

    Pure hatred. If I was a Jedi well dammit man I would have gone to the dark side. Thats how much I despised them.

    Then came Agents of Chaos. We met their preists... Learned more of their religion. And learned that it was the selfishness of one of their high preists that led to this invasion.

    And we met Tsavong Lah. The heavy of heavies in NJO. Someone Nom Anor was scared of. And we learned of Lahs master.

    Shimraa.

    The very bad guy. The one that I think Anakin is gonna have to take for a ride around the block. The one behind all the Vong. At this time he is still a mystery. But we know one thing about him.

    He is like the Vong biotech. Utterly deadly. Poison.

    We then got Balance Point. Didnt learn much about the Vong other than dont underestimate Nom Anor and dont piss off Tsavong Lah.

    Lah nearly killed Leia and ordered the deaths of all the Jedi.

    I didnt think it was possible to hate the Vong more.

    But there I am.

    And then I get Conquest. And I meet the Shapers and The Shamed Ones.

    And I meet the warrior Vua Rapuung and the Shamed One Uunu.

    And the Vong although still terrifying became something more than one dimensional baddies.

    They became people. Just people. Deluded and highly zealous, sociopathic and cruel people.

    And I almost found myself liking Rapuung and Uunu.

    But those Shapers discusting people.

    The things they did to Tahiri. I would have hated them less if they had just killed her. But they did far worse. They tried to brainwash her. To destroy the human within and make her a Vong.

    A dirty Vong.

    It sickened me. I feared what Anakin would find at the end of his journey. And was happy that the Shapers had not finished their damnable task.

    And yet.. Not all the Vong were zealots.. Religous freaks so enthralled in their religion that they never thought to question what they were doing..Themselves..Or their leadership.

    No, not all the Vong think the same way. Some see beyond their scriptures and think for themselves. Their ambition outweighed everything.

    Not attractive qualities but I could relate.

    And yet... I found that the Vong love. That they care for their familys.

    But they do so in ways different than we do.

    Their beleifs are not our beleifs yet they live their lives as humans do. They live and breathe, hope and dream, they have goals like we do.

    Theyre just different.

    And Rapuung.. In his own way an honorable and admirable being.. Almost a good man.

    But not by our standards. By theirs.

    He was true to his word.. Unlike other Vong though. He lived only to prove that he was one of them.

    And he may have been.

    And Uuno.. How different is she from me and you? She only wants to
  2. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
  3. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
  4. princess_of_naboo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 4
    Wonderful and well thought post.
  5. bterrik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001
    star 4
    Perfect. I cant even argue with you :_|
  6. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    Its still hard to beleive that the Vong are MORE than JUST monsters.

    Theyre...Monsterous people. :)
  7. jadesaber2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    I will never see the Vong the same way again. That was a beautiful post.
  8. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
  9. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    So some are nice sociopaths. Perhaps after the people of the GFFA win, these good Vong could be given a planet or two or an entire sector while their sociopathic bretheren are destroyed.
  10. bterrik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001
    star 4
    That was so great, I saved it to my hard drive. If I ever see people calling the Vong horrible and wholy evil people, ill show them that :)


    BTW, in MS Word, It was 3 pages long!! :eek:
  11. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    Seriously? Three pages. Whoah. Looks like I got diahrhea of the keyboard again.

    I do have to state I dont condone what the Vong do.

    I abhor it.

    But I just cant see them as faceless drones stabbing and hacking their way across the galaxy.

    I see them as living, breathing beings, with their own value system.

    Their own set of morals.

    I see them as people. Not good people. But Greg Keyes took their masks off and I realize that theyre people too.

    I have compassion for The Shamed Ones.. The funny thing is they are far better than what they aspire to be.

    And the sad thing is they will never know it.

    It's funny though.. That they're as horrified of us as we are of them.
  12. jedilona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 4
    I cant think of a single thing to add, and I certainly can't argue...

    Thanks for the post(s)...

    Now I think I'll go back and reread the books, especially with this new perspective..

    Wow

  13. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    It's weird to look at them as people when theyve been monsters for so long...
  14. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    i must join the throng of people congratulating you. that was some inspiring stuff.
    As a footnote, i must state that the evolution of the Vong has dissappointed me. when i read Vector Prime, i was excited. finally a totally alien enemy, with little if anything human about them.
    Now they have almost human characteristics, they are perhaps even capable of...compassion?
    urgh, what a thought. they are going the same way as the empire. next thing you know, we will be rooting for the vong, as they lovingly join with the NR to face the horrors of the unknown region.
    What must we do to get a totally un-human, alien, 100% evil foe?
    i am dissapointed with this direction. the NJO could have been so much more...
  15. LanceJade Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, some of the Vong are capable of "love" - but if it was really "love" them they would not have tried to kill each other.

    Just wait till one of their "gods" materializes... Im willing to put money that it will happen. I think we will see that there are NO human traits there.
  16. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    I wouldnt say that the Yuuzhan Vong are capable of compassion.

    Comradary. Loyalty. Yes. Compassion? No. Compassion is a sign of weakness.

    If they were capable of compassion there would be no Shamed Ones. There would only be Yuuzhan Vong brothers and sisters joined as one to wipe out the infidels.

    Note that they do not feel compassion for the humans and other species they fight and kill. They feel only contempt.

    But the Jedi the warrior gods of the New Republic.

    They do not feel contempt when one of them engages them in battle.

    I think the Vong find the Jedi to be worthy matches for them.

    Except for Jacen Solo. Jacen who had succumbed to foolish pacifism was considered unworthy..

    Which is why Tsavong Lah was so incensed when wimpy Jacen knocked him on his ass.

    Those that stand and fight are admired by the Vong.

    But those that do not fight... That take no risks.. That do not suffer for their causes...

    They are deemed unworthy.

    It is strength that they admire.

    It is strength that the Vong understand.

    And love for a Vong is a very different thing that it is for a human. It is obbviously very passionate... But it can also be lethal.

    Most healthy human relationships are not a thing like most healthy Vong relationships.

    The Vong are not almost human.

    They are Yuuzhan Vong.

    My point is that the Vong are people. Individuals. With lives of their own.

    Not simple killing machines. But more than that. More than monsters.

    People.

    But not people like us. I wouldnt want to meet a human that could relate to the Vong.

  17. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Wow. Muke, can I kiss your a. . . err, nevermind.

    That was awesome. You showed me what was so obvious, but I didn't even see it.

    You have a talent.
  18. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    Serious? I'm not even sure what I did to tell you the truth, but I'll do it again if you want. :)
  19. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
  20. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I felt bad for the Shamed Ones. I agree, what they are now is better than what they aspire to be.
  21. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    Well whatever I did it seems to be working.

    I think that we humans have one up on the Vong.

    They lack a thing that most people are born with.

    Empathy.

    The ability to understand what another living being is feeling and going through.

    They also lack sympathy.

    The plain ability to care.

    When a society is dedicated to suffering they dont have much use for empathy and sypathy.

    Anakin's ability to empathize and to a small degree sympathize is what helped him communicate with the Shamed Ones and Rapuung in the first place.

    If the Vong were to develop these basic human feelings...

  22. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    But some humans don't have sympathy. Maybe its just backwards for the Vong.
  23. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, some humans are just as sick as the Vong.
  24. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    But those people are Sociopaths and Psychopaths.

    And thats the way the Vong's are.

    They are a sadomasochistic society. They are sociopaths.

    Why do you think it was easy for Anakin to empathise with the Vong but they are unable to do the same with him?

    Because they are not like us. And yet...

    They are the worst aspects of us.. They are drawn from our worst nightmares.

    They are the serial killers of invading space aliens. Much like serial killers the Vong veiw their victims as inhuman things.

    But serial killers are a warped mindset. They are not a normal human mindset. They are abnormal.

    Thats why these sickos are veiwed as inhuman monsters despite the fact that they have human bodies.

    It isnt the body that makes you human. Its the way you veiw others.
  25. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Actually the Vong arn't really that different from us.

    The Vong warrior was shocked by the display of fire in Conquest and horrofied...but did you ever notice he didn't ever explain why the things he believed were so abhorent?

    The reason is I don't think he knows.

    Certainly there are Vong that glory in murder, destruction, and hatred like any other and they are the one's in power and possibly even the majority but that's because truth be told it's been drilled into every last one of their heads for centuries.

    Any child like Tahari can be taken in by the Vong and tortured for years until the time that they supress caring.

    Love is a natural state to the human race, compassion, empathy etc are the things innate to all of us....yet they can be supressed.

    Yomin Carr saw Mara as worthy and granted a "warriors death" to men who called him friend.

    Shedeo shai mourned his grandfather and sought to convert rather than kill.

    Men can never divorce themselves from what is inate but the Vong like Dhalmer and others embrace all forms of pain and this includes suffering of the spirit.

    The spiralling madness of sadism and murder is no less like an alchohalic drinking himself to death or the ritual scarring the Vong practice.

    How difficult is to imagine the Vong were once a peaceful people like you and I...until the droids came and destroyed all but those who were strong and fought back with every part of their body. That those who could not bond with their machines were destined to die and that to survive the terribe ordeals every child had to become an adult in endurance, stamina, and...numbness to the horror about them.

    Now imagine these lessons passed down as tradition from a race fleeing....

    I don't think the Vong have a home galaxy, I think they were drievn from it with only folk tales and each other to handle their culture
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