Just people? (spoilers)

Charlemagne dont make me feel sympathy for those dirty murdering Vong.. Because I am awfully damn close and I dont want to... I want... NO! I NEED to hate these guys.

 

Muke, I agree wholeheartidly with what you said. Jedi Ben and myself had a great conversation on the evilness of the Vong probably about five months ago. What Conquest did was shore up my point that the YV aren't all evil, but have been brought up with differnet cultural standards that makes them differnet from the GFFA's inhaditants. I have no idea how far back that thread is, but it is worth a look if you become bored one day.

 

If evil exists the Vong are it.

The tragedy is that the Vong don't KNOW they are evil because they don't have any cultural standard that could be called healthy.

They're living horrofic wartime conditions because the fearful and wicked in power refuse to make any changes.

It's like Wedge observed on Adumar, eventually contact weeds evil out because understanding and communication are the end.

Already the Shamed Ones are looking to the Jedi for redemption and you could see the Shamed One slave admiring the Jedi for giving a "damn" even though she didn't really believe it so without belief such a thing is possible.

the danger is that the Vong who are sickest may hide behind religeon and wealth and power to the point they might destroy the cultures of good and justice before they ever learn to communicate this love...

and like the Vong themselves they will start to suppress love.

and become blind to the Force.

Why the Vong must be stopped, pity them for their unecessary delusions but don't hate them because they're unworthy of it. Any who conciously made the choice to be evil for whatever reason died out centuries ago....

Mezahan Kwadd is the closest the Vong have come to it, ironically becuase she recognized how insane the Vong all are.

and even she has no reference for it.

 

The Vong have a very rigid society that does not adapt well to change or dissent. This will be their undoing. Also, they will not even adapt their biotechnology to make it more effective since their rigid leadership will not let the Shapers modify their biotech protocols. The Vong seem to reject the concept of experimentation and testing that would improve their chances to conquer the GFFA.

The really dangerous Vong will be those that abandon these protocols and develop the superprotocol which seems to be the Vong equivalent of the Scientific Method. I think Nom Anor would be very interested in the superprotocol which will make him very dangerous.

 

Well I can say I have been noticing an actual culture in them for a long time and I must say, I am almost expecting to find out that at the end of this, the Vong and the NR will make up kind of and live in harmony...


... but I hope not.

These creatures may have a different way of looking at things, but my God, they are EVIL...

all the innocennts they've killed ... all those people in the first book, those civilans on Dantooine, everyone from the young girl in the begining of Ruin to Elegos to Ithor at the end of Ruin... AND THAT'S NOT EVEN HALF OF THE SERIES!! These creatures are evil murders and despite what their "gods" say about it, they will be stoped!

And what they did to Tahiri, I agree with you Muke_Skywalker, I was afraid of what Anakin would find at the end.
And what's with Luke Skywalker! He isan't doing a thing to help anyone. He's just sitting on his hands whining about everything, again.

The Jedi need to go on the offensive or else there won't be a galaxy left to defend.

- JMG

 

I do pity these things... But I have a hard time not hating them.

How can one NOT hate the existence of evil.

The Devil could be considered a sympathetic figure but I wouldnt go on a picnic with him.

I do hope that some of these Vong come to their senses and perhaps... Learn something from the Jedi's example.

Remember that Vong who apologized to Anakin because he had to take him prisoner instead of kill him?

Sick as that was... He treated Anakin as a comrade.. A fellow warrior... Not as some rodent to kill.

Perhaps some of the younger Vong Warriors will learn from the noble example of the Jedi.

Perhaps with this shining light of good before them they will question the evil they are doing...

The Shamed Ones see the Jedi way... The Jedi give them hope... But the Vong society is not based around the concept of hope. It is built around the inevitibility of death.

Hopelessness.

Pain.

But the Shamed Ones see those that give their lives.

And for what?

To save other people....

Maybe it's not too late for the Younger Vong... For the Shamed ones.

There are Heretics who dont beleive in the stagnant Vong way of doing those.

Heretics who seek progress.

My God... The Vong are like those people in OUR HISTORY who burned witches at the stake... Who murdered scholars and scientists as heretics...

They were an example of religion gone horribly bad.

That is the Vong leadership.

A corrupt religion.

Perhaps it began in a noble way... Perhaps they began that way to stop the machine oppression...

But they lost their way... And now they kill.

Not so much out of hatred.

But fear?

The Yuuzhan Vong fear the people of the GFFA...

...Not because of any threat they offered...

...But because of the fear of the unknown...

... The fear of change.. Of loss of identity...

Better to wipe out a potential enemy rather than make a new friend?

Could this be the mindset that makes monsters out of men and women?

Not the implants or the mutilations...

But the fear of what COULD HAPPEN?

Fear leads to the Darkside.

Fear leads to anger...to hate...to suffering...

The Vong are absent from the Force... But by God they personify the Darkside...

WHOAH!

 

It's more than religeon.

Mezha Kwadd gave up religeon and she just used it to become Mengele.

It's the very essence of their interaction with fellow sapients

Religeon has just been effected by it

 

Right... The Yuuzhan Vong society has made brutality...almost....like a handshake.

It is so ingrained in their society that...it dominates it.

 

I wonder if Rebirth will further alter my perceptions of the Vong as Conquest did.

 

Cool... see, i thought about that before, but you made everything much clearer.... Ok in one of the books there was something about if 2 groups of people want different things you settle on a third choice. The NR wants peace or their planets back. The Vong want the galaxy or everyone to convert to their ways. There is only one choice left and that's war. I understand about the darkside and all but the Jedi can fight w/o anger. I hope the Jedi kick the Vong's.. butt.... hey - can we cuss?

 

A lot of what was written reminds me of the situation in Ender's Game, but I won't give that away in case some of you haven't read it.

And it also reminds me of the whole 'foul is fair' theme from Macbeth, in that any event can be considered 'fair' or beneficial to one party while it may harm or be 'foul' to another. It's all about perspective, and that was a very basic description of the theme from Macbeth.

 

your words give new perspective where before their was none.
many in this thread speak of differences between us and the Vong, how we can now empathise and see them as people.
i startling thought...could our fear and revulsion, perhaps even our empathy for these characters come from a subliminal facet of ourselves?
could it be...that we see the Vong as what we could become? Look around the world to hotspots of violence and religious hatred and war...we are capable of what the Vong are doing, if we succumbed to such an internal pressure, a primal urge, could we become the Yuuzhan Vong?

 

I was looking for this thread a week ago. I forgot the name. Thanks for uping it.

 

You're welcome Wedge88. Glad you like it.

 

Beautifully put, Muke! Everything you said has a great truth to it.

Protege-of-Thrawn---I hope to God that we all don't end up like that....

Also, this talk about the Shamed Ones admiring the Jedi leads me to something else--you think that just maybe, the Vong are going to start turning on each other? Like the ones who support the Jedi join the Jedi (not the NR 'cuz the NR is trying to destroy the Jedi)? It seems likely, especially since the last part of Conquest had Nen Yim thinking that "repression is the favorite food of heresy."

 

Someone mentioned something about the Yuuzhan Vong gods showing up, and there being nothing human about them, and it got me thinking.

When the Yuuzhan Vong talk about their gods, I always think, "Well guess what, yours don't really exist and your priests are full of it."

This kind of applies to real life. WE don't know for sure whether or not our "Gods" really exist, since we've never seen them. Ditto for the YV. This isn't a religious thing, but simply an application to human life.

I guess when Muke said that they were a little more human than we thought, I thought of this. Makes you think.

BTW, good essay Muke.

 

Wow...perhaps the best and most insightful thread I've had the pleasure to read. As I've not read all the NJO books out, I'll hold my comments until I do, but you very well might find me back here, opinions tagging along, and ready to be played with.

 

Oh man I entered this,and found an interesting and great thread.
I do think that Vua Rapuung fell something like compassion for Anakin and he tried to save him. If this was not the case, he'd let him fight with his brother. He didn't.
Its sad that Vua Rapuung died,an interesting character. He could learn alot out of Anakins morality and Anakin more about the Yuuzhan Vong people.

 

I'm new to this topic, but I just read Muke_Skywalker's initial post . . . I'd have to say that's got to be one of the most enjoyable posts I've ever read here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!

I've been a big fan of the subtle revelations into the Yuuzhan Vong culture as the NJO storyline progresses. . . The world creation aspect within the NJO, specifically regarding the YV, hints at a lots and lots of intriguing and complex cultural details!

Sincerely,

Ana V

 

Just a few days till Rebirth, wonder what insight we'll get on the Vong in this one...

 

that was a great post Muke it really makes you think

 

Seeing that Rebirth is literally, just around the corner, I thought I would give this an UP!

Great thoughts one all of it!

 

it was a beautiful post. it really was. but...

THEY ARE NOT REAL! THEY R MADE UP CHARACTERS! THEY R NOT PEOPLE OR MONTERS OR ANYTHING BUT WORDS ON A PAGE!!!!!

 

Um... Duh.

 

Great thread Muke!