CT Just realized this...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    So Luke was worked up the entire way to Cloud City?

    Given were LUke is after the fight with Vader, I don't think calm, at peace and passive would desribe his mind set. Would you calm, passive and at pease if you just had a hand cut off, found out your enemy is your favor, your teacher lied to you, you still haven't helped your friends, and there doesn't appear to be a way out for you.........Real calm, peaceful situation there.
  2. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I also don't like the Force taking over everything that happens and making puppets of the characters.

    One could say "the Force did it" for anything, including Luke throwing away his lightsaber in ROTJ. Luke has the same calm come over him there, is that the Force, too?

    Lame.
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  3. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Whether you like it or not is not the question here... Looking at QuiGon's spoken parts in EpI and ObiWan's in EpIV show that there is an active communication between the Midichlorians and the Jedi... and can be argued here to be the source of Luke's knowledge that releasing himself off the platform was not an act of suicide but one of trusting the Force (I might add just like Luke does in EpIV turning off his targetting scanners, and during the entire scene in EpVI at Jabba's Palace and in the Dune Sea).
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  4. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Obi-wan tells Luke to trust the force in ANH. And Luke doesn't try to commit suicide in RotJ because the force told him it would be ok. The entire Jabba scene is Luke planning a rescue and executing his plan. If you watch the scene in ESB he looks "broken", for lack of a better word, looks down, then lets go. He isn't at calm or at peace or anything. He finds another way out, death.
  5. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    So Luke planned to fall into the Rancor pit. Luke planned to be taken to the Dune Sea and cast into the Pit of Karkoon? I doubt that highly. Instead, I would submit that he trusted the Force, he had an initial plan on rescuing his friends, and when that plan broke down he improvised with the help of the Force to escape the situation unharmed. Look at the expression on Luke's face in the scene where the Rancor is unveiled... I would not say that embodies "executing his plan."

    Disagree... however if that's your opinion, we'll have to agree to disagree. Furthermore, I actually agree that Luke looks broken as the epiphany is revealed... HOWEVER look again at his face as he readies himself to fall into the abyss. His face relaxes, and he even smiles... as he realizes through the Force there is an alternative, so long as he trusts the Force.
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  6. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    I clearly planned to walk in and take Han by force if he had too. He put the Droids in place, smuggled his lightsaber in, got Lando in under cover, got Leia and Chewie in under cover etc.... I don't think he closed his eyes and walked in.

    No, he has accepted "I'm going to die, and I'm ok with that". But like the characters have substance and growth and making sacrifices rather then the force always making everything ok in the end.
  7. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I do not disagree... however the exact means of the rescue/escape are completely unknown to him once his primary plan fails... meaning that once again he must trust in the Force and improvise.

    I understand, we as viewers can obviously identify with the character (Luke in this case) easier than we can identify with the ficticious Force or midichlorians... so it's always going to be easier for us to identify and rationalize Luke's actions through our own experiences and biases. The entire set of movies however is around the fulfillment of a prophesy by these midichlorians through the Force, and that being the case I cannot submit to the opinion that Luke (who by all accounts is extremely intuned with these voices of the midichlorians and critical to the realization of that prophesy) made a decision to die at that point by tossing himself from the platform.
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  8. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Right because he wouldn't trust in himself or friends at all. He just walks in blind and hopes the force will pull him through..... You do remember when they are going out the pit and LUke tells Han - I've taken care of everything......SOunds like a man with a plan to me.

    You may not like it, but he did.
  9. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Just like when he throws down his weapon in Jedi.

    Luke Skywalker would rather die than join the darkside. That's the hero he is.
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  10. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Whether I like it or not is inconsequential... you're right that this was the dialogue in that scene... however this "plan" is being developed by Luke on-the-fly, using the Force as his ally to help engineer a way out of the situation... I'm not discounting his trust in his friends... what I am proposing is that the Force was not altogether absent during the entire sequence....

    and I think we're deviating a bit from topic.... Good debate as it is, and very enjoyable even though we disagree.
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  11. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    According to the Making of RotJ, Luke's plan all along was to get to the Sarlaac Pit where they'd be in the open. That's why R2 had his saber.
  12. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    As a kid, I always thought Luke had it planned out all along. I guess even I believed his confidence.

    I think it could go either way in the context of the film; Empire really deepened the meaning of the Force in the training scenes prior to this, so I'm going to go with the Force as well.
  13. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    This. Simply put and accurate. This is a moment when he is truly alone. Obi-Wan told him he could not intervene, by extension even the almighty Force seems to have abandoned him at this point. Luke is forced to make a choice and chooses death.

    Of course, we know the Force is still with him, but he must be uncertain. This is further emphasized when he falls down the shaft, hangs onto the weathervane, and calls out for Ben. There is no answer. It's only when he reaches out to Leia and she arrives does he realize the Force is still with him. It's also at this point Luke realizes that he can control the Force by choice. It's his choices that guide him, not by will alone. Lesson learned: destiny is over-rated- you have a choice. Vader didn't learn this until the end.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Nov 7, 2013
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "I tried, in my going through mythology, to distill down into certain basic ideas things that seem to exist in a great deal of mythology. Again, to try to find the themes and ideas that continue over a great amount of time and across a wide spectrum of cultures. The Force is a result of that. The Force is the way that many people view the great mysteries of “Is there other realities at work other than the one we can perceive.” I think that the Force represents life—I mean another way to describe it is “life-force.” It’s the spirit of life rather than the physical manifestation of it."

    --George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection, 1993

    "Ultimately the Force is the larger mystery of the universe. And to trust your feelings is your way into that. It is an issue of quieting your mind so that you can listen to yourself, and as Joe [Campbell] would say, “Follow your bliss.” It’s to follow your talent, is one way to put it. That’s the way I see it.


    --George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001



    Because it would get him away from Vader. Luke knew that he was out of options and was out of room. He didn't know for certain what to do...until the Force told him what he should do. That's why Obi-wan told him to trust the Force and not the targeting computer, three years earlier. It is why Yoda says that he will know the right and wrong of things, by trusting the Force. It is why Qui-gon told Anakin that when he learns to quiet his mind, he can hear the will of the Force.
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  15. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    But if the Force will guide his actions why didnt tell him not to go to Cloud City, nothing good came of him going there.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    LUKE: "You mean it controls your actions?"

    OBI-WAN: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

    Because Luke didn't listen to the Force. He made the same mistake that his father made with Shmi and Padme. He listened to his emotions more than the Force. As Obi-wan tells Luke, he can feel the Force, but he cannot control it. Meaning he is going off on his own because he believes that his abilities will grant him the means to rescue his friends and when confronted by Vader, he thinks that he can do what he's been trained for. He didn't understand the lessons learned because he didn't trust the Force. This is why it was a dangerous time for him. It is only when he hears the Force, does he choose to let go and act on instinct. He doesn't know what will happen. He doesn't know if he will live or die. All that he knows is that he must get away now, before it is too late. Hence it is instinct.

    OBI-WAN: "This time, let go of your conscious self and act on instinct."
  17. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    That doesn't mean the Force "has a plan" and will get him out of any and every jam.

    He knows he'd rather die then go with Vader, so he acts on instinct. He basically commits suicide.

    We don't see that of transformation in Luke until after he has taken the plunge.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I never said that it had a plan. Just that Luke felt something within the Force say, "Let go" and he listened. That doesn't mean that he thought he would die. Just that he trusted his instincts and listened to the Force.
  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    So his choices don't matter. The Force had a plan, it wouldn't let him die.

    Rather then Luke making a sacrifice, having a great character moment, fate is just playing out and he has no control over what is going on. And as I said, if thats the case you have to then apply that logic to EVERY choice made by EVERY character. Han flying into the astroid field wasn't a risk or dangerous or an example of him being a great pilot, the force guided him in there and lead him through to keep Leia safe.

    I watched the movie last night, I was wrong Lucas doesn't talk about him letting go one way or the other on the commentary track. The Wookiepedia entry for the movie, for whats it worth, says Luke is attempting to commit suicide in that moment.
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Nov 8, 2013
  20. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Totally missed the Force telling Luke to jump the way Kosh told Sheridan to jump in Babylon 5, or the way Obi-Wan told Luke to use the Force during the Death Star run.

    Seeing the movie in theaters as a kid in 1980 I missed it. Watching it on TV countless times over the years I missed it. I missed it on the VHS tapes. I missed it on the LD. I missed it during re-releases and special editions. I missed it again on the SE VHS. I missed it on DVD. I missed it on Blu-Ray.

    I've heard GL add and remove Luke scream as he fell. I've heard GL add "NOOOOOO" to RotJ. I've seen Han shoot 1st, Greedo shoot 1st, Han stepping on Jabba's tail, and countless other additions and subtractions over the years.

    I've never heard the Force say "Let go."

    I have seen Luke make the heroic decision to fall to almost certain death instead of turning to the darkside.
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  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Letting go is an act of faith. The Force is like a religion in the Saga. You take leaps of faith based on what you believe in and what you classify as instinct. Luke takes a leap of faith by letting go. He doesn't know that he will be sucked into the exhaust pipe, no more than he knows that he would hit the bottom of the shaft and die. But by listening to the Force, he can make a choice other than turning evil. He is putting his faith in the Force that letting go is the right thing. The same way religious people put their faith in an invisible deity to make decisions in their life. Han, not knowing of the Force like Luke, trusted his instincts to go into the asteroid field. He knew that it was a dangerous thing and that he could kill all four of them, but he put his own faith in his abilities and trusted them.

    In the case of Luke using the Force to destroy the Death Star, he is relying on his common sense which is to use the targeting computer. Even though he knows that Pops missed the exhaust port by doing that very thing. That is why Obi-wan chooses to speak to Luke when he starts using the targeting computer. He tells Luke to trust him when he says that he must use the Force, instead of a computer to hit the port. He is telling Luke to have faith in him and the Force. Luke shuts off the computer and starts concentrating on the Force to direct the torpedo.

    QUI-GON: "Without the Midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

    ANAKIN: "They do??"

    QUI-GON: "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."


    LUKE: "But how am I to know that good side from the bad?"

    YODA: "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive."

    We do not hear it as words. We see it in the moments when the Jedi react. We see it when pauses before he blocks the three shots from the seeker. We see it when Luke closes his eyes to summon his saber, in the Wampa cave. We see it when Luke lets go on Cloud City and again when he reaches out to Leia. We see it when Luke suddenly walks out of the hut in the Ewok village. When he looks at his hand and his father's and makes his choice. We see it in Obi-wan when he starts concentrating on getting out of the shaft and Maul's reaction to it. That's listening to the Force and acting on instinct.
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  22. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    Luke hadn't been trained for long and wasn't so strong with the Force that he could have felt it telling him to let go and trust his feelings....Ben told him to do it in ANH and Lukes instincts weren't much stronger when confronted by Vader. Remember his failure in the cave and with lifting his X-Wing from the swamp? Luke still had so many doubts in his mind regarding the Force.

    He didn't have a master plan or Force revelation.....he just gave up.
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  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke was much stronger by the time he went to Cloud City, than he was when he arrived on Dagobah. Again, as Obi-wan told Luke, he can feel the Force, but he cannot control it yet. He had come a long ways, but he wasn't there yet. But Luke was there enough to feel the Force. That is why the script and the film both show that it was a matter of trust in the Force, when he makes his choice. There was no master plan, that is true. But it all comes down to faith.
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  24. DLINE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2013
    star 1
    Yah he did but it was a good thing the falcon came and got him! His green saber is the best.
  25. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    Interesting. He may have been, like others pointed out, trusting the Force, or perhaps he thought death was better than joining Vader.... You'd have thought he could have tried to run past Vader of something, but maybe he didn't want to be captured. A Dark Side Luke is much worse than a dead Luke. This says something about Luke, but I don't know what it is.