CT Just realized this...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    I didn't see Luke's actions as a 'leap of faith'. It was an act of desperation and defiance. It was his only choice besides taking Vader up on his offer- which he would never do. Yoda and Ben warn him emphatically not to go. Ben tells him he won't be there to bail him out if he gets in dire straits- which to the audience remembering the 'use the Force' scene from ANH clearly brings home the point that Luke is alone, without Ben/the Force to guide him. Ben even tells him if he chooses to face Vader, he will do it ALONE. Ben acknowledges that the Force is indeed with him, but Luke cannot control it. There is no reassurance from his teachers- quite the contrary. All of these warnings come to fruition when Vader has beaten him, crushed what he believed his father was, called out Ben as a liar, and tempts him with Galactic rule. Luke is at rock bottom. He doesn't look within himself or has some internal revelation or a moment of clarity like he did on Hoth in the Wampa cave. If he reflects on anything related to the Force, it's the dark omen he experienced on Dagobah in the tree. Luke is at the crossroads to where that omen is face-to-face with a harsh reality and when Vader says 'it is your destiny...it's the only way,' Luke defiantly takes the plunge into the abyss.

    I don't like this action to be akin to a suicide attempt, it really wasn't that. He chose to sacrifice himself rather than accept the so-called destiny Vader has tempted him with which he himself witnessed in that tree. Here's a good rule-of-thumb if you don't understand a subtext in the SW movies, listen to John Williams' score. He gave that moment when Luke lets go a fanfare- tragic in tone, but a fanfare nonetheless. Luke made a bold move. Heroic.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Nov 10, 2013
    Rickern likes this.
  2. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    You're also assuming the Force guided Luke to fall to be saved. Maybe the Force was guiding Luke to let go because Dead Luke was better then Evil Luke?

    As I poitned out earlier, Luke has been through more in the 2 minutes before he lets go then most people go through in the whole lives. There is ZERO indication that he was calm and at peace in that moment, probably the opposite.
    T-R- likes this.
  3. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    You mean except the change in his expression and demeanor just before he lets go... the moment at which he smiles and releases. You're right besides that pivotal moment, there is "ZERO indication".
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  4. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    That's not an indication he is at calm or at peace.

    Those expression changes come after he looks down, which would indicate he looks down, decides he'd rather let go and die, and thats what leads to the change in expression and demeanor.
    T-R- likes this.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    What Luke is aware of and what the will of the Force may be aware of, are different things. It is possible that the Force did so, knowing that he would get sucked in, but Luke is unaware of what could happen. And yes, it does come after looking down. No one is denying that. That doesn't mean that he was planning to let go when he looked down.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  6. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    No, thats when he decides "I'd rather let go then go with Vader".

    The force doesn't tell him to let, he decides to let go.
    T-R- likes this.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Ah, you don't know that.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  8. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    yes we do because the script says Luke makes the decision.

    Sorry, but that's wrong. What those moments show was Luke USING the Force, not the Force talking to Luke.
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 13, 2013
  9. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    You mean it controls your actions?

    Yes, but it also obeys your commands.



    (Huh. Reading my reply back, it looks like it came out of a fortune cookie)
  10. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I know the dialogue in the movies, but what the scenes actually SHOW is Luke using the Force. Those scenes do not show Luke being controlled. That's what my post meant.
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 14, 2013
  11. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Line is "Partially, but it also obeys your commands".

    The Force doesn't control someones actions

    What the script says - Vader puts away his sword and holds his hand out to Luke.
    A calm comes over Luke, and he makes a decision. In the
    next instant he steps off the gantry platform into space.

    It says a calm does come over Luke, but it also says Luke makes a decision, NOT that the Force informs his decision or actions.
  12. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly. Luke made the decision, he wasn't told to do it by the force.
  13. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I wouldn't go so far as to say Luke was suicidal. I think he was relying on the Force to guide him.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I agree with you.
    T-R- likes this.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke makes the decision to let go. That doesn't mean that he made the decision to die.

    Qui-gon Jinn would disagree with you.

    QUI-GON: "Without the Midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

    ANAKIN: "They do??"

    QUI-GON: "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

    Ergo, if the will of the Force tells Anakin to zig instead of zag, he does so. If the will of the Force tells Luke to let go of the platform, he does.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  16. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    I concur. Luke was trained in the Force at this point and could have sensed that the Force could guide him to safety, sort of similar to the way Anakin jumps out of the speeder in Attack of the Clones.
    darthbarracuda likes this.
  17. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Even if Luke was confused, you'd have to be even more confused to join the Sith.
  18. The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I never made any statement related to this, you either misread or misunderstood my comment, because I did not make any reference that pertains to him joining the Sith.
    Last edited by The Star Wars Archivist, Nov 15, 2013
  19. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    My implication was that Luke jumping off the bridge was not the result of his being confused, neither was he confused in the first place but made the wise decision.
  20. The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I disagree, when he jumped, he jumped away in fear and confusion, one of quite a few things he did not fix while under Yoda's mentoring. The "wise" decision, I believe, was not the one he made. Do you honestly think he thought he would survive after jumping from that ridiculous height? I highly doubt it.
    Last edited by The Star Wars Archivist, Nov 15, 2013
  21. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Okay, I think I might just admit that Luke did not jump after reflecting on his situation with peace of mind, after all just look at the way he fights Vader and stumbles repeatedly. However, even if the motivations for his act and the act itself were not wise, it was certainly the wise choice in comparison with being captured by the Sith and losing all hope for the galaxy. At least by jumping from the ledge Luke would have ended all hope for the galaxy while fighting for the Jedi, and not adding to the number of evil agents by becoming one.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  22. The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3

    The wise choice in comparison? Luke was in no way asserting his well being, he could just as easily have been captured by the Sith as easily as the Millennium Falcon rescued him. Therefore, his choice was not even wise in comparison. One could even say that his choice was not even thought out, myself one of them, and even if he had thought, his decision would still have many variables which could cause an unwanted outcome.
  23. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    But he doesn't say they will control and guide his every decision, that the force over rides the Jedi's free-will has complete control over all their actions.

    As I've said before, if you take that view of the force, no character in any of the movies ever makes a meaningful decision or risk or sacrifice etc.... They are basically all just puppets of the force.

    And no, letting go means he was willing to die. When he has the chance to fight for his life he did, but he didn't know that would happen. He was willing to die rather then go with vader.
    T-R- likes this.
  24. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly.

    If you look at that underlined point, darth-sinister is saying that the Anakin and Luke are doing what the will of the force tells them to do.

    Using that, the will of the Force told Anakin to choke his wife and kill younglings.

    Do you see how absurd it is to attribute the DECISIONS the characters CONSCIOUSLY make to the will of the force.

    Luke chose to jump and die rather than turn to the dark side because that IS WHO HE IS, not because the force told him to do it.
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 15, 2013
  25. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1