CT Just realized this...

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    True, I think it quite far-fetched to say that the Force controls every character's decision, thus removing their moral responsibility. Still, there are certainly some things which certainly can be attributed to the Force such as foresight and lightsaber deflection. And the Jedi on numerous occasions state and teach that the Force controls everything. The question is if that still allows room for personal responsibility of actions i.e. can the characters be free and yet their actions be determined by the Force.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They have free will. That is never in doubt. But in listening to the Force, it is putting their trust and faith in a power that few can truly understand. We call it instinct. We call it intuition. We call it our conscience. If you hear the voice of God, or fate telling you to do something, and you have been trained to put your faith into it, then you will choose to respond to it. That's what having faith is all about. That's not having free will.


    That's not what I am saying. When a Jedi uses the Force correctly, they are one with the Force and they are in control of themselves, but they listen to the Force and follow it. When a Jedi becomes a Sith, they aren't listening to the Force. They are listening to themselves and the power of the dark side of the Force.

    "The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

    --George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999


    "I tried, in my going through mythology, to distill down into certain basic ideas things that seem to exist in a great deal of mythology. Again, to try to find the themes and ideas that continue over a great amount of time and across a wide spectrum of cultures. The Force is a result of that. The Force is the way that many people view the great mysteries of “Is there other realities at work other than the one we can perceive.” I think that the Force represents life—I mean another way to describe it is “life-force.” It’s the spirit of life rather than the physical manifestation of it."

    --George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection, 1993

    "Ultimately the Force is the larger mystery of the universe. And to trust your feelings is your way into that. It is an issue of quieting your mind so that you can listen to yourself, and as Joe [Campbell] would say, “Follow your bliss.” It’s to follow your talent, is one way to put it. That’s the way I see it. The hardest thing to do when you are young is to figure out what it is you’re going to do, and you’ll never know what it is you’re going to do. But if you follow the things you enjoy… I’m not sure anyone really enjoys making money; they may enjoy what they do after they’ve made it, but they don’t enjoy the process. If you can find something that you actually enjoy in the process, then you have found your bliss."

    --George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars,” Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001


    "It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000


    That doesn't rob them of free will. Anakin could hear the Force say that this is the moment by which he must fulfill his destiny, but instead, he chooses to ignore it in favor of his own greed. He acts more on his own instincts which tell him to ignore the truth.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  3. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    You're the one saying they don't. You're the one saying the Force controls all their actions. That Luke wasn't CHOOSING to let go, but hte Force was telling him too.

    Basically what you're saying is "I don't like the idea of Luke willing to kill himself, so I want to create an out for him", unfortunately that out underminds every decision that every character makes in all 6 movies.

    Luke was following his destiny, but that doesn't mean the Force told him he'd be just fine if he let go. It was still a heroic action that LUKE decided to make.

    "Following your bliss" doesn't = "the universe giving you the right answer and telling you that you'll be ok". He let go fulling expecting to die and accepted that, and perfered that to going with Vader.

    If you are going to argue the force is controlling everyones actions, how you can Anakin wasn't listening the Force? Maybe the Force knew the only for Anakin to destroy the Sith was to become one?
    T-R- likes this.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's not what I said and not my reasoning.


    I never said that the Force told Luke that he would be okay. I said that the Force said, "Let go" and Luke chose to listen to it. He didn't know if he would live or die, just that he had to let go. He just put his faith in the Force that this was the right decision. As to the Sith, it is obvious that they are the problem. That's why a Chosen One was needed to eliminate the problem. Anakin made his choices because he chose to let his emotions carry him away from the realities of what was right before him. The whole point of "In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not." is that Anakin chooses to not work with the Force to find and follow his destiny. He instead chooses to run from it because he cannot accept a future where he's without Padme. Luke chooses to run away as well, by telling Obi-wan that he cannot fight and kill his father. But after what he experiences on Endor, he comes to feel the Force and based on his instincts and what he can feel is right from the Force, he chooses to confront his father to save him. Not kill him.

    Anakin's choice in ROTS was the wrong one because it was made emotionally, not in a state of calm and being at peace with himself. Luke's choices were made the right way because he learned to let go and he could hear the Force.
  5. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    But he didn't. He choose to let go rather then go with Vader. The script says Luke makes a choice, not "something inside Luke told him to let go" or "Luke felt like he had to let go". It says, He made a choice.
    T-R- likes this.
  6. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly. The whole point is Luke made a choice, he wasn't told to do it by the force.
    TX-20 likes this.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    A choice born of the Force. The scripts never say that the Force was involved like that in the description. But in the words of Yoda and Qui-gon, that is the case.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  8. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Except there is zero evidence that it was, and believing thats how it goes makes every choice made by any character meaningless.
    T-R- likes this.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, because they can choose to listen or not to. Anakin didn't listen, Luke did. That's the story.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  10. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    No, Anakin made bad choices, Luke didn't. Thats the story.

    As I pointed out, even the script says Luke makes a choice, not that the force talks to him.
    T-R- likes this.
  11. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    If the scripts don't say it, it didn't happen. The script doesn't leave it open to debate. It flat out says Luke made a decision.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The decision to "Let go your conscious self and act on instinct" maybe, as it's put in ANH?
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  13. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    The decision to let go. The to die (or least roll the dice and risk death) rather then go with vader.

    The problem with "destiny" or "what the force wants", as was pointed out above, its all interpurtation. Vader said it was Lukes destiny to destroy the Emperor, and thus wanted Luke to rule the galaxy with him once that was done. What if that is what the "force wanted" but Luke went against his destiny? What if Lukes destiny was to die on Cloud City, but he fought against it and lived?
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    When Vader is talking on Cloud City, he is trying to tell Luke that had Obi-wan not interfered like he did, he would have raised him to be a Sith Lord. That it was his destiny to join him. That doesn't mean it was really Luke's destiny. Just what Vader had planned when he was telling Padme what they could accomplish on Mustafar. Only now it was two decades later and he could finish what he started.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  15. Yeahvin4 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2013
    my initial thought when seeing this scene was that Luke had no alternative and was choosing death...However...aside from faith in the Force and taking a leap in the hope of escaping, what did Luke know of Cloud City? I mean the structure and floor plans? His X-Wing computer, i would assume, would give readings about its design as he was approaching it so that he could track where the Falcon is docked, where to land his ship, and know the layout of the interior since it was a very big city and needed to get to Han & Leia asap.

    anyway, based on listening to the environment he and Vader were in, it sounded as if there was a lot of air being sucked out of or into something. I know the setting was in the stratosphere above some gas planet and hearing that is to be expected. But the "city" they were on is basically a station that, i would think, was built to encase and had no openings or shafts at the very bottom so as to protect anyone from falling down and out of the "city." This isn't to say that Luke would've splattered at the very bottom anyway, but what if he knew that vast shaft they were in was simply Cloud City's main garbage chute? There was a control room they battled in right before Luke's hand was lopped off. I would assume that's where CC's control panel was at to initiate garbage being sucked out. After all, what was the purpose of that little hatch that Luke fell into and slid into some tunnel to fall yet again into another hatch that opened? Further, gravity pull would suggest he'd fall in a straight line. Luke appeared to fall straight first, then somehow got "sucked in" FROM THE SIDE into that hatch. From here you also question, was he sucked in from the side, or did he use the Force to enter that small hatch on the side of that vast shaft?

    i'm probably not making any sense to some of you who already made up their minds that Luke was simply acting rash or being scared, naive or whatever. But the scenario suggested would imply what was already said that Luke had faith in the Force and made that decision to do what he did because he knew there was a way out without ending his life right there. The choice of his escape was bold, daring and foolish with a high probability he may not come out of it with bones intact and Luke likely knew that. But i somehow think Luke also trusted in himself to do what he did because he understood Cloud City's structure and trusted in his ability of the Force.
  16. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Suicide is an intentional act to kill oneself. Luke was not intending to die. I'm certain he wanted to keep living. However, he saw staying and being captured by Vader to be a worse alternative than falling and most likely dying. He had no intention of ending his life. He simply knew he couldn't allow himself be turned into a Sith. When he fell, he was surely hoping for the best. (BTW in the novelization, it actually says that Vader slowed his fall to save his life.)

    It's impossible to know if Luke was communing with the Force just before he let himself fall (though I personally like to think he did), but I don't think that if he did that in any way takes away Luke's freewill or reduces of the drama of the scene. If he communed with the Force and the Force "suggested" he "let go," the Force could have also willed that Luke end up as a splat at the bottom of Cloud City. There's no reason to think that the Force always wills that a Jedi will survive a life-threatening situation. Vader did the right thing, returned to the light, saved his son, and he died as a result. There's no doubt that Vader was following the will of the Force there, and he ended up dead. The same could have been true for Luke. Even if Luke was following the will of the Force, Luke had no idea that he would live when he let himself fall.

    Also, communing with the Force doesn't take away your free will. The Force offers guidance. (I don't think it actually speaks to someone in words, but instead gives someone a sense of what is the best course to take.) However, a person doesn't have to follow the Force's guidance. He can freely choose to reject it. So, Luke could choose to follow the guidance of the Force or reject it, and even if he follows it, that doesn't mean he's destined to survive. He's simply destined to do the right thing according to the Force, which might mean rejecting Vader even at the cost of his life.
  17. whostheBossk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    Did you know that Bossk outfit was reused from an old Doctor Who episode from 1966 called The Tenth Planet ... just found this
    [IMG]


    Mod edit: Removed link
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 15, 2014
  18. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    1980-1996 (He chooses death over joining the Sith)
    1997-2003 (His one hand slips, screaming as he falls to prove this was not a choice)
    2004-2011 (He chooses death over joining the Sith)

    That's 2 to 1 for suicide!
    Last edited by TX-20, Apr 15, 2014
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  19. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Mesk no Trauff indeed. It wasn't reused- Bossk killed the man and took it.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Apr 16, 2014
  20. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3

    A few seconds before Luke lets himself fall, he looks around and down, very intently. Even as a kid, I've always thought this was supposed to be him thinking, essentially, "If I fell down there, I'd die for sure. That's it!" I think he's looking for some mechanism Vader could use to get him back. He doesn't see one; he lets go.
    thejeditraitor likes this.
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Luke definitely intended to die in that moment. In fact, that's most likely why Lucas added the scream in the Special Edition--so people would get that Luke didn't know he would be saved. Of course, adding the scream turned out to be a rather uninspired choice, and it apparently backfired anyway, so it's a good thing it was removed in later releases.
  22. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    i always took it as possible suicide, at least as far as letting go of everything rather than giving in to evil. luke was ready to die and sacrifice himself if he had to. he didn't know whether he would survive. luckily he was saved.

    i hated the added scream. just like the added "nooo!!!" it takes away from the drama.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Apr 18, 2014
  23. SeinEwigerSchatten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2013
    star 1
    Congratulations! [face_party]

    finaly the last person on earth has also realized it.
  24. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    Please make your points without the sarcasm and condescension.
  25. Darth Scourge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 4

    Similar suits also appear in ANH and ROTJ.
    They are actually modified High Altitude Pressure Suits used by Royal Air Force pilots in the 1960s.
    whostheBossk likes this.