ST Just What Makes a Jedi A Jedi? (Or Sith, for that matter)

Ever since it was announced that Kylo Ren was not a Sith, but a Darkside Knight, I've been thinking of this very question. People say he's not a Sith, well I say, what's the difference?

That's not me being critical or antagonistic, I honestly don't know. Sith use their passion for strength, to obtain power. Seems like that is what Snoke and Kylo are doing too. They may not know of the Sith code, or the Sith traditions (whatever those are), but they use the darkside for evil. So, really...what's the difference? Not sure I could tell you myself.

I'm sure there's a lot of philosophical answers to that, but none of it is really delved on in the movies, either. It's just good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith, Lightside vs Darkside. I think your question is a valid one. Other than "good" and "evil", what does "Jedi" and "Sith" actually mean?

 

A Jedi lets the force make him/her its property. A Sith makes the force his/her's property.

A Jedi lets the force guide his/her's destiny. A Sith takes control of his/her's own destiny.

The dark side is honest and direct. The light is blinding.

 

Jedi are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.

 

That's just it, there are many force sensitive individuals throughout the the galaxy who do not know they have the force and excel in an area. I always viewed the Sith as a sect who broke away from the Jedi so they could concentrate on learning the darkside, but had allowed their own passion to consume them in craving more and more power. The Jedi are similarly but they think unselfishly outwards. They Want their ranks to share the orders views before they will advance the member and share more knowledge with that member as they fear that the darkside might consume them.
I use to think it was straightforward that the Jedi were good and the Sith were evil. The PT shows there are a lot of grey areas between both force user groups.
For your question on what makes a Jedi? I think a shaolin monk would be your answer.

 

After seeing Rey controlling the ST mind, reading Kylo's and fighting like a knight without any training, my answer would be: the concept of Jedi refers just to some traditions and ranks about one's experience on studying the Force....

The Force feeling and controlling is neutral... It's just a matter of midichlorians counts....

And for what makes a Sith a Sith, I believe it's something about other ranks and other traditions... The force lightning, choke, etc are not exclusive to the dark side... It's just a matter of ethics if one is going to use it against others...

The only real difference between Jedi and Sith are the yellow eyes that we have seen on Maul, Sidious and Anakin.
I don't recall seeing Dooku with yellow eyes on-screen... Humm..............

 

The force is "God." Jedi are like priests. ("Devotion to that ancient religion") Very knowledgeable and perhaps in direct contact with the Force. But being a priest is not the only path path to God. Many (most?) people have a personal relationship with God. Coming to Him and communing with Him in their own personal way. There may be many other ways...even other religions besides Jedi and Sith to be "with God." Maz (perhaps) and Leia are examples of being in touch with 'God' without following the dominant "religion."

(Background on me. I'm a full blown atheist. But this is my personal view of the "way the force works" and the Jedi/sith relationship to the force)

 

Not sure it's that easy. For example, in TFA The force uses Finn, but Rey uses the force. So don't think that analogy is correct.

 

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

The Jedi mantra.

 

"COLEMAN"

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith code.

 

It's all in the philosophy of the user that determines the title.

 

Bingo.

 

What makes a Jedi a Jedi is being trained by a Jedi. The same goes for the Sith.

That's why the Sith no longer exist because no one is around to train them.

 

Maz is a highly Force-aware non Jedi.

My opinion is that Jedi are those with specific paramilitary/combat training who were raised in the Jedi environment or trained by Jedi masters. Luke is the closest thing left to that in this world, so he gets to decide who becomes a jedi. Before the fall of the Republic, the Jedi could enforce their own orthodoxy by operating a state-sanctioned monopoly over training talented individuals in the use of the Force.

But now that the old civilization has fallen and the Jedi and Sith are basically extinct, new schools of Force-informed martial arts could potentially be established. Anyone with the talent to invent or adapt their own skills into their own branded technique has no one left to prevent them from doing so. The Knights of Ren is basically one of those schools.

Rey is something else besides a jedi. She's a highly talented, highly independent loner who learns how to use the Force on the fly as compelled by life-threatening circumstances. If she gets trained by Luke, she's a Jedi. If not, then she's her own thing, whatever that is. Like Maz.

 

Named after ILM's Robert Coleman

 

It's an interesting discussion, and it highlights perfectly why it doesn't really work to criticise TFA on the basis that it changes/cheapens Force powers, as the nature of the force and what it means to be a Jedi has kind of evolved over the films, and the background context of becoming a Jedi requiring decades of training has by necessity always been compromised by the need to show visible growth over the period of a film, for untrained characters.

It's one of those things that requires a bit of creative thinking, and that the EU was always good at hinting at.

Personally, I'd say that the best way of reconciling the info we get from all the films, including TFA (and Im going to work on the basis that Rey is related to a Jedi, most probably Luke Skywalker. I know it's not confirmed, but until contradicted, it works for me) is this;

If you have talent with the force (inherited, midichlorian related, destiny, whatever) then you can do some force related things without realising it

If you are strong with The Force and know OF use of the force AND that you are strong in it, then the actual manipulation of The Force to some degree is relatively straightforward

However, using the force without training leaves you vulnerable to stronger force users, or vulnerable to corruption as you seek power for power's sake

So, becoming a Jedi is all about achieving a PERSONAL balance of the force; developing your powers as far as possible within the light side, and accepting the limits of that power.

So, by that token, the phrase "most powerful Jedi" would become obsolete, as becoming as powerful as possible isn't the aim of a Jedi; a Jedi could be weak in the force, but would be a very wise Jedi by accepting their ability, and using it for good, even in the knowledge that the dark side could be a short cut to greater power.

 

IMO this is going to be a big, big theme in the next few movies.

 

I don't think there are any hardline rules as to what makes a Jedi or Sith. I tend to agree with the idea it's more about your life philosophy than sword and magic training.
This is what Lawrence Kasdan had to say about it in this interview:

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/lawrence-kasdan-qa/
Can I have one total geek-out? Will you tell me what a Jedi really is? Are they emotionless? Do they trust their feelings? Are they samurai? Shao-lin warrior priests? Wizards?
Everybody has different answers to that.

Yeah, but you wrote the movies. You get to say.
George once said to me, “oh, Ben is not a Jedi master.” I said, “what?” And he said, “yeah, he’s not really a master. A master is this and this.” And I said, “you’re out of your mind.” To me, Ben Kenobi is the ultimate Jedi. When you see Alec Guinness play that part, everything that you would want from a Jedi is in that. There is nothing about Alec Guinness that is unemotional, that has given up everything material and is living in a spiritual world.

He has a strong relationship to Toshiro Mifune’s character in Yojimbo, and a strong relationship to the head man in Seven Samurai. Those guys are not in some spiritual world. They are in both worlds. They are dangerous and engaged and feeling and empathetic and generous and brave.

 

A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. The Sith only think inwards. About themselves.

 

Jedis and Siths are individuals who are born with a special connection to a mystical forcefield underlying matter itself. The Force isn't just a philosophy - it's a real thing, it's the Tao, it's the pantheistic God, it's a FORCE that holds reality together, and some individuals are able to manipulate it in order to accomplish feats that are impossible to ordinary people. It has even generated a Son, Anakin Skywalker. It has little to do with light-sabers.

I'd hate if any ordinary individual in the galaxy far far away could suddenly learn how to tap into this Force. It truly cheapens the mystical fabric underlying Star Wars, even more than that midichlorian silliness.

The difference between Jedis and Siths is merely different philosophical leanings.

 

The Sith and Jedi are just two dogmatic orders of Force users. Think of them more as groups of colleagues who pool their research and discoveries (holocrons, mentoring, etc). There is nothing to say there couldn't be any number of other Force users who aren't affiliated with either group. The Night Sisters are Force users, and they aren't Jedi or Sith. Nothing would prevent someone from just learning how to use his/her abilities alone, but it'd definitely be easier to learn with the assistance of a collected history of research.

 

It's a really good question to ask. My thinking, like others, is it comes down to the philosophy of the Force user. If you follow the tenets of the Jedi, then you are a Jedi. And if you follow that of the Sith, you are a Sith. With regards to the latter group, I really hope that Snoke and Kylo are not Sith and that they dispense with the rule of two idea as I never really thought that was a good idea.

 

The Dark Side and Light Side of the force simply parallel Star Trek's emphasis on logic vs instinct/intuition/emotion. The Dark Side is emotion and the Light Side is logic and rationality.

Jedi, by keeping a clear, logical mind, are able to hone their senses of the force and right 'wrongs' in the force. For example, the force is an organic energy. Thus it is only correct that in the name of self-preservation the force would direct itself against aggression and harm to living things. It is the ability to evaluate a situation holistically and one's place within a greater whole. I imagine a Jedi to be making cogent, fast arguments in his mind and operating within a rigid set of ethical rules. Thus becoming a jedi of equivalent power to a Sith is much harder.

The Dark Side of the force is about forging a primal, intuitive connection with that energy. What better sign of being alive is there than emotion? The force is also drawn to intense emotion. The problem is that, to keep generating the emotions required requires adopting worldviews and ideologies that corrupt one's character irrevocably.

 

If we're going by previously established canon then the Jedi and Sith are both trained in the use of the force. However, the Jedi live by a strict moral code that they should only use their powers for good while the Sith believe in exploiting their powers to become even more powerful.

The Force Awakens, of course, kicks all that to the curb and kind of makes a mess of things when untrained Rey not only held her own against a powerful Sith Lord like Kylo (come on, that's basically what he was) but actually defeats him rather soundly, especially when earlier in the movie he was able to completely immobilize her with a gesture.