BTS JW Rinzler's 'Making of Return of the Jedi'

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, May 23, 2013.

  1. only one kenobi Jedi Master

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    I'll say again; "A young Jedi named Darth Vader...". There was no young Jedi named Darth Vader once Luke's father becomes Vader. So the Vader as father 'twist' is not justified by metaphorical truths. The only way it can work with what was said is to understand that Obi-Wan is an out and out liar.

    Its not a plot twist, its a plot change.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Nov 6, 2013
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  2. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

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    well I did . When I saw ROJ and saw how old anakin looked I assumed he must've been in his 40's when he turned 'cos Luke is 18 in ANH .
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  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It's both. It was a change in plot, though one that Lucas had been debating about for a long stretch. And it is a twist because it is presented as such, in TESB.
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  4. oierem Jedi Master

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    But it's meant to work in the context of the trilogy/saga, not meant to be a plot-hole or a contradiction. Obi-Wan's wording may not be ideal, but the only way to make his statements in ANH compatible with the revelation of TESB is that he was distorting the truth, or saying the truth" from a certain point of view", as he himself explains it in ROTJ.

    Therefore, in ROTJ we are meant to understand that Obi-Wan was talking about the two sides of the same coin when he talked about Vader betraying Anakin (again, Gollum-Smeagol, or Jekyll-Hyde). He was not inventing a non-existent character, or making up a fictional background for Darth Vader. Vader was the dark self of Anakin (the dark self that was growing and getting stronger even when he was still a Jedi... from a certain point of view, you could say that Darth Vader was hidden -pun intended- insde the Jedi Anakin).

    Long story short, Obi-Wan clearly explained that Vader was his apprentice and was a young Jedi. He never said a thing about Anakin's age. If Vader=Anakin, then Anakin was Obi-Wan's young Jedi apprentice (as he states again in ROTJ).
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  5. oierem Jedi Master

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    I don't doubt it, but you are saying that you assumed that Obi-Wan had an apprentice who was around his same age?
  6. only one kenobi Jedi Master

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    To get to the point I will reference, particularly, your last paragraph. Obi-Wan talks of Vader ( a young Jedi named Darth Vader) who was, well, young, and a pupil of Obi-Wan's...until he turned evil. So, yes, it would be true to say that the expectation would be that Vader would be young - as in, appreciably younger than Obi-Wan. I get that.

    He talks of Luke's father as a good friend, a Jedi Knight as he himself had been; a cunning warrior, a great pilot. It is implicit within his words that Luke's father was of a similar age, or at least within such a close age range that being a good friend and a fellow Jedi Knight would make sense.

    When Obi-Wan then goes on to describe Vader he refers to him in an entirely different tone. Implicitly (again) there is a distinction. That is exacerbated when he describes him as being a young Jedi who was a pupil of his until he turned evil (which does not match with the description of a good friend who was a fellow Jedi Knight). The two characters are then explicitly separated by the naming of Darth Vader as this young pupil of his.

    When the two characters are combined there is a quandary. Is Anakin an older man or the young pupil? Lucas plumps for the former in ROTJ...and then backtracks in the PT.

    I just don't know why you think it odd that Anakin was older while you seem to have no trouble swallowing the Vader=Anakin 'twist', which simply does not match up with the original movie. Or, to put it another way; once the two characters are mixed up how would you choose one of the two distinct descriptions as meaningful over the other?
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Nov 7, 2013
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  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    I thought the PT did quite well by having Anakin be Obi-Wan's pupil, yet also become a Jedi Knight, fight in the Clone Wars alongside Obi-Wan, prove himself to be a "cunning warrior" and so forth.
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  8. oierem Jedi Master

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    Not entirely true in :ROTJ it is clearly stated that Anakin was Obi-Wans pupil, and therefore, younger than him. It is true that Vader unmasked looks old, but how old? It's difficult to say because he is so scarred and has been living inside a mask. But still, he was Obi-Wan's pupil.

    It is implicit but never stated. Therefore:

    One of the descriptions clearly states that he (Vader) was a young man and Obi-Wan's pupil.

    The other description doesn't state any age, it is only stated that he (Anakin) was Obi-Wan's friend and a Jedi Knight. You can say that it is implied that he was around Obi-Wan's age, but it is never stated, nor clearly implied (Obi-Wan doesn't say "we used to go to Moss Eisley to get drunk when we were young" for example).

    Both descriptions are compatible: he (Anakin=Vader) was a young man, Obi-Wan's pupil, Obi-Wan's friend and a Jedi Knight. You can see all that in the PT. The contradiction arises when you add the idea that he was close to Obi-Wan's age, but that is NEVER stated nor clearly implied in the movies. Yes, when he takes off the mask he does look old, but how old? Is it because of the age or because of the mask and the injuries?
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  9. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    For people who find the (apparent?) contradiction troubling, it's worth reiterating that Lucas used "visually" as a qualifier when discussing Anakin's age in that quote.
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  10. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

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    That Obi-Wan is Anakins teacher does not in of itself say that Anakin MUST be younger than Obi-Wan. In RotJ Obi-Wan says that when he first knew him, Anakin was already a great pilot but he was amazed how strong the Force was with him. And he took it upon himself to train him.
    Since Anakin is described as already being a great pilot, that can very clearly be taken to mean that he was grown up by the time he met Obi-Wan. So he could be in his 20's and Obi-Wan maybe late 20's and just finsihed his jedi training. Combined with ANH's "He was the best starpilot in the galaxy.", it does sound that Obi-Wan met Anakin when the latter was an adult.

    You can also add Owen and Beru to this mix. Both characters look rather old and both clearly knew Anakin quite well. Also Luke calls them Uncle/Aunt so that means that either Owen is Anakins brother or Beru is his sister. Siblings can differ in age a bit but normally they are quite close in age.
    Also, given what is said in ANH, Anakin was with Owen on the farm but the former didn't hold with the latter's ideals. And Anakin later left with Obi-Wan. In all, it is rather strongly implied that Anakin were of an age with Owen and Beru.

    The scene was filmed but cut but it is of interest here, namely Red leader talking to Luke in the rebel base. He talks about Luke's father and how he met him when he was just a boy and how Luke's father was by then a great pilot. And Red leader was said to have been in his 40's, so what he talks about is at least 20-25 years ago.


    Actually Vader is called a young JEDI, not young man. If the average age of a jedi is 50, then someone who is 30 could be called "A young Jedi." Of course you do have Vader's taunt of "Old man" to Obi-Wan so that is the strongest proof that Vader is younger than Obi-Wan.

    [/QUOTE]

    But both Obi-Wan and Vader indicate that Vader's traning was not complete. And while Anakin is called a Jedi Knight, Vader is simpy young jedi or pupil. Vader himself says that he was but a learner when he left Obi-Wan. That is a notable distinction.
    In ESB, Obi-Wan warns Luke that he doesn't want to loose him the same way as he lost Vader. Luke but that stage, is half-trained, again suggesting that Vader likewise was half trained when he turned.
    Lastly, Luke asks "How did my father DIE?" What Obi-Wans says, in light of RotJ and the PT, is a lie or at best an evasion and doesn't answer the question that was asked.

    In closing, before the two characters were merged there was an age difference between them and some other differences as well. When he merged them Lucas had to choose which backstory was really Anakins and he went with the older person. Thus Shaw was cast and the RotJ script refered to Anakins ghost as "elderly." He also changed some stuff about Owen, now Owen was instead Obi-Wans brother so now there might not be a relation between Owen/Beru and Anakin. However that was cut from the finished film and when it came to the PT, Lucas changed Anakins age and made Owen Anakins step brother. But now they hardly know each other.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Nov 8, 2013
  11. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

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    no I thought Obiwan was about 15 + years older than Anakin .
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  12. oierem Jedi Master

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    So you're saying: Anakin was 40 when he turned and Obi-Wan was over 55.

    20 years later, Anakin was 60 and Obi-Wan was over 75 (does he look that old in ANH???)

    Fine. That's compatible with both descriptions (although I think a PT about a 40 year old man's trainning and temptation with a 55 year old master is much less interesting than the final product). But saying that Obi-Wan and Anakin were the same age is not.
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  13. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

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    I always assumed Ben was much older than Alec Guinness , the way people spoke about him as if he were dead by now etc. I figured the Force kept him younger than he was .

    I 'imagined' before the PT that Ben had trained anakin as a young man in his 20's , they'd fought together in the wars etc. then sometime around his 40s Anakin turned .
  14. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    Because Jedi knights can only be friends with those of similar age, or even worse, can only have "fellow Jedi knights" of similar age? In what way was such a thing ever even suggested? Are Jedi knights supposed to be clique-obsessed highschoolers who refuse to associate with anyone outside their age group?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2013
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  15. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

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    Your snark notwithstanding, the fact remains that in 1983 Obi-Wan was not talking about a nine or ten year old boy, or that Anakin/Vader was supposed to have been about 60 years old when he died - an age which, btw, coheres even with the pre-Father Vader (TESB/ROTJ) timeline whereby ace-pilot 'Annikin' is at the right age range for a 40-45'ish Red Leader to have met him when he (Red Leader) was just a boy.

    It's not a coincidence that the pre-PT 'assumptions' based upon the implications of Ben's (and other's) dialogue turned out to be right at the time; they were only changed later on.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 8, 2013
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  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    At the time ANH was made, Obi-wan was supposed to be in his 60's and Vader and Anakin were supposed to be in their 50's, at least. Now, Obi-wan is 58 in ANH and Anakin/Vader was 43.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    In other words, yes? These are serious questions; the above does nothing to answer them.

    Jedi knights can only be friends with those of similar age?

    Jedi knights only associate with other Jedi knights if they're of similar age?

    Because that's ridiculous.

    Various ages for Anakin work just as well there, not just one. It's a range.

    Ben's dialogue only "implies" what you're saying it does if nonsensical assumptions are made.
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  18. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

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    where are those ages for ANH from ?

    .
    Last edited by gezvader28, Nov 9, 2013
  19. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    Nowhere, for the most part. By the time SW/ANH was made, Luke was meant to be about 18-20, Obi-Wan was meant to be about 70 - that's based on quotes from GL, but that's about all there is to go on (plus the actual ages of Alec Guinness and later, Sebastian Shaw, as rough indications, but that makes matters even more vague). There's also the 1979 mention about there being approximately 20 years between each of the three SW trilogies - clearly being based on Luke's age in SW/ANH, for the gap between the PT & OT, at least.

    Everything else is based on inference and logic - and given the way the OT and then the PT were developed, it falls apart on closer inspection if you try to construct something definitive. That's not to say that making such inferences isn't worthwhile (when you're talking about a particular period of development), but when you try to piece the puzzle together from 1977-2005, there's a heap of inconsistencies.
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Guinness was 62 at the time ANH was made. Shaw was 77 when he appeared in ROTJ. According to Lucas, while describing their ages to Kasdan, Anakin was supposed to look about as old as Obi-wan, but was younger than him. The official ages as it stands now, with the PT in place, were given in the novelizations and official books. In TPM, Obi-wan is 25 and Anakin is 9. In AOTC, they're 35 and 19 respectively. Though AOTC kinda messes up Anakin's age by saying he was already 20, but TPM said that he would be ten the following year. ROTS takes place three years later. Twenty years between ROTS and ANH, three years for TESB and one year for ROTJ.
  21. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

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    An Anakin who is 60 years old fits the bill as being "younger than" an Obi-Wan who is 70. And, let's not confuse the character's age with the actors' age......


    edit:


    Those were not 'serious' questions. Those were begged questions. As such, the 'above' was the appropriate response.


    "Because ridiculous" is not an argument and doesn't refute the fact that Lucas had different story specifics in place back in the making of OT days.


    Didn't say that "one" and one only age worked. Only that a 9 or 10 year old pilot Anakin doesn't fit with a 45 year old Red Leader, who meets the former when the latter (Red Leader, but not Anakin) was a boy.


    Ben's dialogue implies what I'm saying because words mean things , and specific wording implies certain things to the exclusion of other things. They are not "nonsensical assumptions", but facts of the story which were in operation back then only to be changed later on.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 9, 2013
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  22. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    So sayeth the one who, for some reason, refuses to answer them. That's what makes them serious. They illustrate the untenable implicit assumptions being used in a foolish attempt to put words in Guinness' mouth.

    An argument which depends on baseless, illogical assumptions is not an especially valid argument.

    Always resorting to the tired excuse "But everything was different back then!" doesn't allow you to invent Lucas positions which for all we know never existed. Trying to somehow make ANH Ben say "We were the same age!" depends on the following implicit assumptions:
    (1) Ben is unable to have a friend who is not of similar age;
    (2) Any two Jedi knights must be of similar age.
    Both of these ideas are patently ridiculous, and the second fails to make any logical sense whatsoever. Where is the evidence from all the sources we have documenting the "OT days" that Lucas ever believed these things?

    I don't recall Red Leader specifying how old Anakin was when they met.

    Just another typical response devoid of actual substance. No, Ben having been Anakin's friend does not imply they were of similar age. No, Ben and Anakin both having been Jedi knights does not imply they were of similar age. This is because people can have friends who are not in the same age range that they are, and because the Jedi order is not restricted to people of only one specific age.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 10, 2013
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  23. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

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    Okay. So... Anakin was now supposed to have been in his 40's when he turned?

    Let's ignore whether or not the original timeline makes sense. Production wise, I don't really buy it, because I don't see Lucas trying to sell audiences on the idea. I could see Anakin being as old as his 30's... maybe... when he turned, because that at least matches up with one of the ages we had of the main characters in the OT. Han was in his 30's, so when the time comes to do the PT, there's precedent to have a major figure in that same age. And yet it's still more likely that you would see Anakin mirroring Luke's age of late teens to early 20's throughout (not just for the sake of mirroring, but also because that's more likely to attract an audience).
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  24. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't see why someone in their 20s would be more likely to attract an audience .
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  25. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

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    Begged questions not only don't deserve an answer; as a matter of fact, they're purposely designed to be unanswerable.


    More like, allowing for the normal reading of Guinness' words, rather than the - quite understandable - attempts at harmonization, or the downright force-fitting of round pegs into square holes.*

    *see: the Ben calling Vader "Darth"...but..."Darth" is a "Sith title" argument



    I agree. An illogical, invalid position/argument like, say, "Bashers/critics of the PT are wrong about EVERYTHING!!! Therefore, don't concede so much as one iota!"


    Name and list these 'invented' Lucas positions.....

    And what's 'tired' is this scorched-earth policy of "Bashers/Critics of Lucas/the PT/SE are 100% wrong about everything!" that you apply in debates with myself and other posters (both here and in other threads).

    I've not argued that Ben and Anakin are the "same" age, anymore than I've argued that Ben was or 'must be' from/grew up on Tatooine like Anakin. You're (not surprisingly) arguing against straw-men.


    The 'naive' reading is that friends would be of a similar age-range . There is nothing about "unable" there. "Any two Jedi knights must be of similar age" is another straw-man.


    "I met your father when I was a boy..."

    vs.

    "I met your father when I was a boy. Wait..your father was a boy, too!!! Wait, he was actually YOUNGER THAN ME!!!" -

    Must be the new Harmonized SAGA 1-6......


    As naive surface readings go, the first one is a perfectly justifiable assumption. Of course, Han and Luke aren't exactly the same age, and they become friends, but are they really that far off? One is 18-20 (Luke), the other 29-31-32 (Han). Given this Han vs. Luke dynamic of a 10 to 15 year difference, it's not surprising that Lucas would have had a 10 year age difference between Ben (70) and Anakin (60) circa ROTJ.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 10, 2013