BTS JW Rinzler's 'Making of Return of the Jedi'

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, May 23, 2013.

  1. purplerain Force Ghost

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    https://www.google.com/search?q="In...j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8
  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    The closest thing I could find seems to be when Lucas talks about the Emperor as being a sort of dark counterpart to Yoda, a 'spiritual priest' of sorts. Lucas mentions that perhaps Ben was using his powers through the netherworld of the Force to cloud the Emperor's ability to foresee events.

    The original quote (from the ESB book) seems to be a kind of stream of consciousness on ideas for the Emperor. Lucas is comparing different ways to look at him; the Nixonian politician or the embodiment of the dark side. He's also comparing different ways he could appear - hooded, maybe you don't see his face. So he might be talking about Obi-Wan transforming into the Force while the Emperor can also transform into other physical forms? That's mostly speculation on my part. It's just hard to tell exactly what he's on about. Or maybe the 'in the end' means 'once the heroes kill him/take him down' he becomes part of the dark side the way Ben became part of the light? Again, speculation.
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  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Yeah, I've thought that quote to be strange as well....
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Well, recall in ROTS when Palpatine anoints Anakin as Vader, his voice changes and he seems almost possessed. He doesn't even look at him while he's talking. I think in this way, Palpatine becomes so evil and so strong with the dark side, that he has transformed. Not just in appearance, but in his persona and mannerisms. Obi-wan transforms in his own way, first when he goes into hiding and changes his views as a Jedi by becoming more like Qui-gon and then when he becomes one with the Force. Palpatine embodies all that is evil on the physical realm, while Obi-wan embodies all that is good in the spiritual realm.
  5. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Does the book provide with any interesting info on why part of the dialog between Obi-Wan and Luke on Dagobah, which made its way to the shooting script and the novel, was eventually cut or dropped from the movie (Mother Skywalker fleeing to Alderaan with baby Leia, Owen being Obi-Wan's brother, etc...) ?

    Guess not, but prefer to ask...
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  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    ^^^^^^This. I've wondered the above, as well.
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  7. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Not that I'm aware of.
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  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    As far as I've gotten into the book (shooting is underway), there's mentions of the idea at the script stage, but little elaboration upon it, other than that Carrie Fisher thought it was ludicrous when she first read it. Haven't gotten to the point of shooting the scene with Obi-Wan, but I'm expecting the Leia & Owen revelations to be somewhat ignored, sadly.

    There's still some interesting little gems in there that haven't been brought up in this thread:

    - the celebration at the end (p77):

    - the origin of the name 'Salacious Crumb' (p101):

    - on blinking Ewoks (p111):
    Despite us having been somewhat burned by the '1977 midichlorians revelation' in Rinzler's The Making of Star Wars (he later 'clarified' it on his SW.com blog as having been stated by GL waaayyyy later, i.e. post-PT), I'm inclined to believe these quotes about the celebration & the blinking Ewoks.
    GL's quote about the celebration refers to 'Had Abbadon', a name long since abandoned, plus he actually rejects the idea of the galaxy-wide celebration we saw in the 1997 SE of ROTJ as being 'boring', rather than just something impractical or not covered by the budget.
    That the idea of Ewoks having to blink is referred to by Kenny Baker (as opposed to GL or an LFL employee) lends credence to the notion that it was something originally intended, plus it's not unrealistic anyway - Jabba blinks, you'd think that the creature shop would have made at least some effort for the Ewoks to do the same.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Feb 7, 2014
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  9. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Alright, thanks.

    Guess we'd need to contact either massa George himself, L.Kasdan, H.Kazanjian, or even James Khan (ROTJ novel's writer), to try solving this lingering mystery....If they ever do recall something clear on this topic !

    But somehow I get the sense that they're really really fade up, especially the now retired big boss, being asked those kind of questions for almost 35 years now...:D

    Nevertheless, I'll do a lot to know precisely why those lines were eventually cut...I'd even make a pact with an evil Sith Lord like poor Anakin did in ROTS !!! [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]

    No, no...


    I think he made the right choice at the time. Everything is shown on a relatively small scale in the OT, at least compared with the PT.
    This litlle and intimate celebration on the sanctuary moon is basically in tune, and quite fits in with the rest of the movie and the trilogy's mood.

    Indeed, the first part of the quote well explains why the sequence was eventually modified for the SE. Along with the new digital technology available, and Lucas' desire to establish a few stylistic bridges with the PT to come. He clearly had this in mind since 1981-1982.

    Really got to buy that bloody book !
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 12, 2014
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  10. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    What is this revelation? Not the thing you were telling me about with Yoda, right?
  11. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    The Making of Star Wars had a bit where there was a quote from Lucas, describing some of the worldbuilding, and it mentioned midichlorians by name. Many people who were interested in the backstories took that to mean that Lucas had had midichlorians in mind, specifically, since 1977, even if they were never mentioned in the originals. Later, Rinzler mentioned on his blog that that quote was not part of the original material and had been added by Lucas during editing on the book.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Feb 13, 2014
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Okay, but I recall Nub and others explaining to me something from The Making of ESB book that also had GL mentioning midichlorians in a note during the writing of that. So that is still true? (It was developing the Yoda character and under a different name it mentioned he had the most "midi chlorians" of his species and speculated that all species had someone like that and Luke could be that person for his species.)
  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    I think that's a combination of the quote from MoSW (which does have the idea that some species were more closely connected to the Force than others, but apparently didn't put it in terms of midichlorians) and a separate quote from Making of Empire where the basic concept that became Yoda (then a character called Bunden "Buffy" Debannen) is discussed as a 'chosen one.' I think there's a line to the effect of "and Luke can be the human Buffy." Despite being in different books, the ideas and quotes seem like they're probably very close together in terms of story development - the first quote is from the summer of 1977, and the latter one is from the same time period (very, very early stages of work on Empire). So... the basic idea of differing levels of innate Force-attunement and possibly the notion of chosen ones (both Buffy and Luke would be 'chosen,' apparently) seem to be things Lucas was thinking of and talking about in the 70s/80s. The term 'midichlorians,' evidently not.
  14. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Thank you very much for the clarification! Sounds like I got two quotes combined in my head. The only thing that confuses me is you said neither mention midichlorians but I specifically remember "midi chlorians" being there.
  15. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    The quote from Making of SW does mention midichlorians, but after the book came out, Rinzler said that that the use of that word was something Lucas added to that passage of the book before its publication, not something from the original notes and transcripts.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Feb 13, 2014
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I do recall that we considered the quote (before it was revealed to be A BIG FAT LIE!!!:p ) to be early thoughts on GL's part about races/creatures who are inherently powerful in the Force, which would have inspired the character which evolved into Yoda.

    According to Rinzler's blog, most of the material was from 1977, just not the actual part about the midis, so, in theory, it's still relevant:

    http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/2013/06/24/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians/
  17. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Makes sense now, thanks a lot for the clarifications @Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn and @Darth_Nub !

    Regarding the above discussion about why passages on Leia's mom and Obi-Wan's connection to Owen Lars were removed from the film, my guess would be that GL simply wanted to leave himself more freedom if he ever got around to writing the PT rather than putting in all these details that would bog him down and limit the story.
  18. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Agreed, I also think it might have been the reason the word 'Sith' was never mentioned in SW/ANH, even though it is spoken once in the shooting script.
  19. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Another similarity is that the thing cut from the movies was still included in the EU and other merchandise. I have a 1977/1978 Darth Vader glass that says he's a Sith Lord, my pre-PT Darth Vader action figure said he was a Sith Lord on the back of the card, in addition to the comics and novel. The scenes we're talking about in Ep. VI also still had the information from them included in EU and other merchandise despite being cut from the film. Like he was testing it out to see if he liked it? It seems bizarre. Either cut it or not, don't make it ambiguous!
  20. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    It's less about testing than it is that tie-in material is often working from an outdated version of the film.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Nothing was outdated in calling Vader a Lord of the Sith. Just because the OT films never referred to it, doesn't mean much of anything. It wasn't a case of leaving wiggle room because from the start, the Sith was what the opposite number of the Jedi was called. Right from the first draft when the Sith Knight comes to kill three hidden Jedi Bendu, Lucas knew exactly who and what they were. It was dropped from ANH simply to keep the story simple, especially when Tarkin refers to Vader as being the last of the Jedi religion. Not to mention that Lucas didn't even know if he could make his other films. With TESB, Lucas had already decided on Palpatine being an evil Force guru, but not a Sith. Whatever the reason for not mentioning it in the next two films, was his own reasoning.

    This is far different from the species of Force users who was stronger than the humans.
  22. Eternal_Jedi Force Ghost

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    I just have to say that it is awesome that Lucas had envisioned a "chosen one" character named Buffy.

    Think about it. We could have had Buffy the Empire Slayer.

    On-topic: I got this book for Christmas, but I haven't really had a chance to read much of it yet. With a preschooler and a toddler in the house, the only real time I get for reading is on my daily train commute to and from work... but this book is too big to read comfortably on public transit.
  23. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    Going back to read it again, it says something like 'Luke is the chosen one - he's the human Buffy.' So... make of that what you will. Sounds to me like it could be multiple chosen ones... maybe.
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  24. purplerain Force Ghost

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    What are people's opinions on which of the OT making of books is the best and which is the worst?
  25. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Honestly, all three of them are pure gold. Couldn't say which one is better or worse.