BTS JW Rinzler's 'Making of Return of the Jedi'

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Interesting to see that one of Richard Marquand clearly directing the Throne Room scene with Luke overpowering Vader (many claim GL directed the Throne Room scenes), but another with GL & Marquand sitting on the Throne Room steps discussing something.

    I think the late Richard Marquand has been unfairly dismissed over the years as being little more than GL's assistant director on ROTJ, I picture him more as the sort of director that was common in the Golden Age of Hollywood - handling the specific directorial duties on a film in service of the mogul's/producer's vision. A master craftsman, not necessarily an artist.
    Auteur theory (i.e. the director is the true 'author' of a film) simply isn't the all-encompassing truth so many believe it is, nor is it the best state of affairs. The likes of Kubrick, Scorsese and Lynch are the exceptions, not the rule.

    Even Roman Polanski has admitted that for him, Chinatown (my favourite film of all time) was really a job of work, as opposed to the somewhat warped and more personal films that are far more typical of his ouevre. The greatness and virtual perfection of that film was the result of a true collaboration between its writer (Robert Towne), producer (Robert Evans), director (Polanski) and lead actor (Jack Nicholson). From reading the earlier drafts and the various accounts of its making, had any one of those collaborators had too much control and input, Chinatown could have been a disaster that simply didn't work.
  2. jaqen Force Ghost

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    The picture of Ian as Palpatine over 30 years ago is illuminating. I had absolutely no idea there was that much consistency between Palpatine's look in Jedi and post-lightning scarred Sith.
  3. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

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    That could also describe ESB. GL was certainly more hands-on with ROTJ, but he shouldn't be written out of ESB entirely, either. And as good a command as he had with actors, Kershner really shouldn't be elevated to the position of artist or auteur, either.
  4. drg4 Force Ghost

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    Although I resist the conceit of Kershner as the Patron Saint of Star Wars, he had in fact helmed some very interesting character pieces, my favorite being A Fine Madness. What's more, in nearly every interview I've read, he came across as an exceedingly gracious and good-humored man, with nary a shred of Gary Kurtz's obnoxious martyr complex.

    I do hope Disney proves to be as bold as Lucas, in hiring a literate journeyman. (At least they snagged a good screenwriter.)
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  5. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

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    I don't really have anything against Kershner, but I also don't think he directed anything of particular worth before or after ESB. He came close, maybe, with "Eyes of Laura Mars", but that's mostly for the 70's New York location and local cast, and for the John Carpenter script. The attempt is cool, but it's just not in Kersh's range. He tries to do interesting visual things, but mostly it just comes off as gaudy and tacky rip-offs of Helmut Lang photo-sessions and giallo style horror. In a better director's hands, you could've had something really cool-- a Cronenberg, a De Palma, or god forbid, maybe Carpenter himself.
  6. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Oh I don't know, Never Say Never Again was certainly noteworthy - it was complete garbage.:p
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  7. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

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    And it's one of his better movies, too.
  8. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    And now we have the belittling of Kershner, as you guys are just as bad as the people who say he is the Godfather of SW and should have directed every movie. It just worked out that Kersh was right man for ESB material as maybe he wouldn't have been the right man for ROTJ. I always think of Andrew Davis who directed The Fugitive, which is a great movie along with a bunch of unforgettable movies. But you have to give these guys their due for the one great movie they each directed.
  9. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

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    Not sure Andrew Davis is the best comparison to go to. No real classics in his output, but besides "The Fugitive" there's still "Above the Law" and "Under Seige", which at least count as good as far as Steven Seagal films go. Even "Chain Reaction" is pretty decent as an action caper, and "Holes" as an okay kid's movie. At any rate, he has a higher rate of success than Kersh, who has nothing but mediocrities before ESB, and nothing but trash after it. Even Marquand did better on his own before and after.
  10. drg4 Force Ghost

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    Despite my appreciation for a number of Kershner's movies, I am bewildered by those who aver Lucas was incapable of helming something along the lines of The Empire Strikes Back. In actuality, he did. His first film THX-1138 is every bit as beautiful and haunting, and may actually be the better film.

    (And while I'm hesitant in placing Revenge of the Sith alongside Empire, there are many passages that easily rival Kershner's work.)
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  11. d_arblay Force Ghost

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    ROTJ altered ESB and ESB altered ANH. It only matters whether or not you like how it all comes together in the end, not whether or not ideas got revised and things were altered. That's only natural. And the later revelation that only certain people can use the force is not at all explicitly contradicted in the OT, regardless.
  12. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    The term "Force Sensitive" was tossed around by fans for years before TPM - with absolutely no debate. And that term certainly makes a case for exclusivity.
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Jun 11, 2013
  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Chosen One

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    I don't think it does, I think it too relates more to talent. Some people will be more sensitive to the Force's will and powers, but that doesn't mean that someone who didn't start that way couldn't, through (a lot of) training and work, attempt to bootstrap themselves into it.

    I know this isn't even close to "film canon" but consider how the term was used in the old Decipher card game. Characters had an 'ability' score between 1 and 7 (at least I think they all fit into that). If they had a... 4? or more? they were "Force-attuned." And through the use of Jedi Tests (cards based on things Yoda or Ben had said, turned into more generalized lessons/trials) you could raise the character's ability score until they were able to become a Jedi.

    Like I said, I know that has zero bearing on anything filmic, but yeah.

    If you're (generic "you") not familiar with the game or the cards - their sense of humor and detail - they're pretty cool.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 11, 2013
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  14. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    While a stretch... that interpretation also leaves room for midichlorians not excluding anyone, either, then. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I suppose.
  15. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Chosen One

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    There's also a character in the X-Wing novels whose family, it turns out, were Jedi. Anyway, he has talent in the Force, but telekinesis is very difficult for him. He can only achieve it with a ton of work, or with assistance. Other Force powers aren't as problematic for him. I guess me having grown up on that kind of depiction might have an influence on what kinds of interpretations "feel" right.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 11, 2013
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  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    You might be thinking of Star Trek. This is Star Wars.

    Which means that such material is canon, just not on the same level of canon as the films.

    That's kind of the idea. Copping out with "narrative streamlining effort" ignores the fact that the narrative is supposed to be presenting an in-universe reality.

    Not if they're completely irrelevant.

    And how do you propose to demonstrate that this is anything other than an apples-and-oranges comparison? I guess if the Force is like basketball, midichlorian count is like IQ? Can a Corellian be taught to dribble?

    I think you mean there's more uses for midichlorian counts than simply determining someone's Chosen One status. Because you don't believe in the idea of using a midichlorian count to determine someone's Jedi capability, right?

    How? By using the midichlorian count? But you don't believe in the idea of using a midichlorian count to determine someone's Jedi capability, right? How is it that civilized worlds are using midichlorian testing to screen for Jedi candidates but the Jedi are not?

    You don't seem 100% convinced.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jun 11, 2013
  17. RogueZero Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 17, 2009
    " Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody." - George Lucas.

    [face_shame_on_you] Guess you forgot about that part. Honestly you guys, out of everything, somehow Yoda swinging the lightsaber around like the Tasmanian Devil was probably my least favorite thing about the PT. Way to mess up my favorite Star Wars character from when I was a kid...
  18. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Yoda was scripted to participate in the Luke-Palpatine-Vader confrontation in ROTJ; he and Ben would have helped block lightning from Palpatine as ghosts.

    Moral: George changes his mind. :p
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  19. RogueZero Jedi Grand Master

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    I just always felt that Yoda with a lightsaber was somehow wrong. Even as a child, I had this feeling for Yoda as a wise and powerful teacher, not a cunning warrior. I always felt that Yoda was OLD even for his people in ESB and ROTJ, hence why lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp was a big thing for him, at that age. Thus, somebody that old doesn't bound off walls like a rubber ball.
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  20. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    I've never heard anyone argue that.

    fixed
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jun 22, 2013
  21. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Chosen One

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    I haven't even read this article yet but I just saw it. Relevant.

    @Darth_Nub
    @TOSCHESTATION
    @ATMachine

    etc

    EDIT. After reading, the "10 things we didn't know" are probably things the people here DID know, but whatever. The book's almost here! And there will be some story meeting snippets included!
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Sep 25, 2013
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  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN.
  23. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Chosen One

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    That does sound fun. And there's always Return of the Ewok.



    What are we all hoping for in the book? For me, it's:

    -anything regarding The Other and how/when Leia was assigned this role.
    -anything regarding the circa-1980ish Sequel Trilogy, anything at all
    -anything regarding the prequels as they were envisioned at that time, for that matter
    -random quips about half-thought-through ideas

    Looking at that, I guess it's mostly stuff not directly related to the film itself, but stuff that might have occurred in the background during its preproduction.
  24. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    I don't really have particular wishes-there's just so much in the first two books that I'll just read it and be happy more than likely.
  25. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    ...Okay, that's a new one for me.
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