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BTS JW Rinzler's 'Making of Return of the Jedi'

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, May 23, 2013.

  1. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    ^^^
    Huh. Now that you mention it, that does come across as a piece of dialogue written solely for the way it sounds, rather than pointing towards anything specific - much as a curse might be directed towards, "You, your children, and your children's children!"

    Hmm. I'm still convinced Anakin's 'Immaculate Conception' was a 1990s construct, but if this dialogue came solely from Kasdan, maybe this isn't the smoking gun that proves it. Even if Anakin had a father, he mightn't have been a Jedi anyway, particularly if GL had Anakin's slave background in mind back then (which he might have).

    At the very least, however, I think it points towards Anakin Skywalker's origins having been undeveloped at that stage. GL would have mentioned something to Kasdan if he had anything specific in mind.
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  2. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Might be a 'transition' from the earlier phase of SW (think early drafts of the first film) where ALL Jedi where trained by their respective father(s), to the ESB/ROTJ phase where - obviously - this wasn't the case (see Obi-Wan). But of course, with ROTJ, Anakin was trained by Obi-Wan, yet, in this draft, his (Anakin's) own father was a Jedi himself. Might he have died before he could have begun training his own son, thus requiring Obi-Wan to train him?

    Alternatively, this could tie into the Force-hereditary aspect, but with the caveat that it's only 'hereditary' among the Skywalker family/lineage, whereas not so for other families (think: Jedi like Obi-Wan).

    .........[face_thinking]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 7, 2013
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  3. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    Feb 27, 2007
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    Actually, no. That draft in particular was one where Lucas took Kasdan's typewritten second draft and added his own handwritten revisions. So Lucas himself was responsible for that line.

    The idea of Anakin's father being a Jedi certainly reinforces the idea that GL was already thinking about Force potential in genetic terms. On the other hand, it makes the story idea that Obi-Wan had to "discover" Anakin and recruit him into the Jedi Order a bit strange.
  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    IMO that's likely as well--however, remember that an entire chapter of "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" is devoted to the "miracle birth," so it might be equally likely that it would have popped up in Star Wars one way or another.
  5. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    Here's a possible connection. Star Wars suggests Anakin is from Tatooine. Owen is his brother, and Owen thought "[Anakin] should have stayed here [on Tatooine] and not gotten involved." He shouldn't have "followed old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade." If Anakin and presumably his family are from that backwater planet, one might think he doesn't come from a Jedi lineage. (Though depending on how the Jedi operate, it's still possible.)

    However, Lucas's ideas around the time of Jedi have Owen as Ben's brother, not Anakin's. And then there's this newly-noticed line, which suggests that the Skywalkers are a multi-generational Jedi lineage. Perhaps these are related. Perhaps Lucas was reshaping the backstory to the backstory, perhaps to play up Anakin's importance or the power of the Skywalkers. Eventually he found a different way to do that with the Chosen One storyline (which has its linguistic/conceptual origins at least pre-ESB, with the general ideas that would become Yoda).
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Oct 7, 2013
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  6. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Didn't the Chosen One prophecy come from the "Son of suns" prophecy from the early ANH drafts?
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  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    In a way, yes, though that referred to the son - Luke.
  8. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    I know, but that's kind of irrelevant.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    In terms of the evolving story, I believe that it is relevant.
  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    I was referring to how in the summer of 1977 at least, Lucas thought there would be different species with correlated differing levels of intuitive knowledge of the Force. In the development of ESB, this mutated into Bunden Debannen being a Chosen One for his species/people, and Luke being a Chosen One for his (at least, if I'm remembering right). Debannen eventually became Yoda.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The suggestion is only there if you believe it is there. Same with Jabba. Sure, it is possible. But then again, he might just like licking on humanoid women and degrading them, without committing assault. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It's probably why Lucas had the dialogue that strongly hinted at rape removed from the film.

    The only thing Lucas said was about Anakin's rage at finding his mother in bad shape and her dying, which triggers his desire for revenge and his later desire to prevent death from coming to those that he loves.

    The idea of genetic terms goes back to the second draft of ANH with the origin of the Jedi and Sith being talked about by Luke to his siblings. Here, Lucas seemed to be making it in the film itself. As to Obi-wan discovering Anakin, that can be answered by saying that he didn't know that Anakin's father was a particular Jedi until after they first meet. That he was a product of a forbidden marriage. In the first draft of ANH, Lucas wrote that Annikin Starkiller was the product of his father, Kane not keeping his pants zipped up around women. A trait which General Skywalker says Annkin has inherited. I think the reason he abandoned the new plot ideas about Anakin and Obi-wan's past from ROTJ, had to do with either he felt that they didn't work, or he came up with the new ideas while developing the story for the PT. There is a hint of it in TPM, when Qui-gon ask Shmi who was Anakin's father. Strongly suggesting that Qui-gon suspected a Jedi, or a former Jedi of being the father. Along the way, Lucas then came up with Palpatine being
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  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Sorry, my computer connection went out and I couldn't come back in time to finish my post. As I was saying, along the way, Lucas came up with the idea of Palpatine creating Anakin. So, I think it was one of those things that he was always unable to solidly nail down. That's why in the end, in the Rolling Stone interview, he says that he decided to leave it up to the audience to decide if it was the Force controlling the Midichlorians, or if it was the Sith who did it.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Oct 7, 2013
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  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    But we already had that implication: ultimately, how different is "I am a Jedi as my father was before me" from "I am a Jedi as my father was before me, and as his father was before him"?
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  14. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    GL has stated that the 'Son of Suns' prophecy doesn't refer to Anakin - and for all intents & purposes it's been written out of the story, although the EU has used it for something else altogether - however, it does clearly indicate that prophecies and the like were a part of his thinking very early on, even if he put such ideas aside.


    Ah, OK - although he still mightn't have actually written it himself. Even if he didn't, though, it clearly suggests that Anakin might have had a father at that point, otherwise GL would have eliminated the additional line straight away while revising it.

    Of course, the line was eliminated, eventually, like so many other bits & pieces - the specific fate of Mother Skywalker being the main one - but all you can really infer from that is that GL was just keeping his options open. In that old web doco where he's sitting down to start writing Episode I, there's a glimpse of his notes, which includes 'Father - ?' among those regarding Anakin.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 8, 2013
  15. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    I wasn't aware the EU made use of it at all - what/when was this?
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Not much, it's just some gratuitous use of old material, it's been played with even further since I last looked (when it was just something about the Talz chieftain):

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Son_of_Suns

    Just about every name & place in the old drafts that GL didn't recycle himself (Utapau, Valorum, Darklighter etc) seem to be fair game for the EU, here's a few:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Had_Abaddon
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aquilae
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Starkiller
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lettow
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Montross
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ondos
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 8, 2013
  17. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

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    There's a BIG difference: one allows for the possibility of a virgin birth, and the other does not. ;)

    But that aside, no, the lines make very little difference when it comes to implying that Force-sensitivity is in part genetic. For that matter, I never had issue with the idea of Force-sensitivity being genetic when Jedi first established that with the simple line "the Force runs strong in your family." It was always the execution of such ideas that fell short, not the ideas themselves.
  18. gezvader28 Force Ghost

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    Mar 22, 2003
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    I'm amazed that Lucas was going ahead without Harrison Ford , how on earth would they have resolved that storyline if he'd not even appeared in the movie ?

    the story conferences are great , Kasdan is great at pointing out how Lucas is ignoring his own storyline or repeating things . I wish we could read a transcript of the entire story conferences .

    surprising as well how much time they spend making jokes about the story .

    the early drafts are full of input and interference from Ben and Yoda , glad they dropped most of that , can't see why Lucas thought this was necessary .
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    "Even though at some point Yoda and Ben interfered, I eventually decided that they couldn’t connect physically with what Luke was doing. I felt that one of the major issues in the third film is that Luke is finally on his own and has to fight Vader and the Emperor by himself. If you get a sense that Yoda or Ben is there to help him or to somehow influence him, it diminishes the power of the scene."

    --George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997


    At the time, Lucas felt that the Jedi needed to help Luke, because of his inexperience and that it was the final battle between the Jedi and the Sith in this part of the story. But as you see, it winds up becoming more personal between the Skywalkers with Palpatine watching and doing his best to get what he wants.
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  20. gezvader28 Force Ghost

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    are you all too busy reading the book ?
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  21. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    Feb 27, 2007
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    I was re-reading it last night and a few things jumped out at me:

    It appears that not all the actors got on well with Marquand. Carrie Fisher (who seems to have particularly disliked him) describes Marquand's behavior on set as "kowtowing" to Famous Actor Harrison Ford, but treating her and Mark Hamill "badly" because they were less famous. She wasn't impressed, and neither apparently was Ford.

    Another thing that is very obviously evident is George's overriding concern with the budget, above just about all other aspects of the picture. At times it interfered with the shooting of the film. Marquand had to beg, for instance, for permission to have a giant Rancor hand made to shoot closeups of Mark Hamill in; Lucas had initially refused because of the expense. The story about GL nixing a costly animatronic Sarlacc tentacle (only to later renege on this decision when he decided the monster had to actually be seen) is also mentioned.

    Producer Howard Kazanjian reveals that (as with Ghost Anakin) seeing Vader make the decision on camera to kill the Emperor was his idea:
    The screening of Marquand's first cut of the film was apparently a disaster; Lucas was not happy with it at all. (Its style apparently felt "not like Star Wars," and in some places the editing was just plain bad. For instance, in the scene where Vader talks to Jerjerrod as they walk down the Death Star hangar bay, "the screen direction was wrong, backward," as Kazanjian pointed out.) However, Sean Barton, Marquand's film editor, had produced a different cut that Lucas liked a lot more.
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  22. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 18, 2009
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    Does that mean that Lucas shot Vader's "reaction" shots in pick-ups? And did they actually call Prowse for that?
  23. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 9, 2009
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    Do we learn something new about Lucas' "treatment" for the backstory/PT at the time ?

    Is the saga's structure and the future of Star Wars films dealt with a little ?
  24. ATMachine Force Ghost

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    Feb 27, 2007
    star 3
    I believe the issue with Vader not reacting to Palpy grilling Luke was caught during principal photography, so it got addressed during the main body of shooting.

    As for prequels and the overall Saga plan, the book doesn't really deal with that (not surprising, in my view, as A) they've got to save something for the upcoming Episode VII publicity, and B) Lucas's enthusiasm for a sprawling SW saga was much diminished at this time owing to the difficulty of the movie-making and his own family issues re: Marcia).
  25. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Jan 17, 2003
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    [face_laugh]

    yes...:cool:;)