JW Titus Fan Club........Non Denomiational.

Because the Jedi are the "Keepers of the Peace" and "Guardians of the Republic", and so forth, does that mean they answer only into them selves for crimes committed? Are they their own Judge, jury and executioner? I have no knowledge of Jedi wrongdoings, but the EU guys might. How are Jedi disciplined? If Anakin had been stopped and survived - how would he have been treated?


LZM - What America are you talking about, cause I think you got that wrong. It's actually guilty until proven innocent. Individually and as a group - justice is doled out faster than water through a breaking dam. It's a right we believe we have. Lady Z - you have broken my dreams I have been working for years to be all three (Judge, jury and hangman) and now you tell me my goals are misplaced! Lol

I think that the society and times makes using Czarist Russia, pre-revolutionary France and even Al Capone examples of "hand to hand" justice inapplicable.

I have got to agree, for a first draft it was dam good. I remember asking LZM once (she sort of had a connection), if JW would edit the story to add in spoilers that can out after he'd finished that specific area. She said no. It doesn't take away from what he did, but it would have been interesting to see what he would have done. With the availability of the novel - it is unfair to ping on items left out, and disrespectful to attempt to compare - other than story-line - the two novels.

 

from what i have read in the eu it seems that a jedi when they have comited what ever sort of crime anawers to the jedi council, or in the ot era to luke as kyp durron does after he goes on a galaxy destroying rampage

 

If Anakin had been stopped- how would he have been treated?

Fascinsating question, Nefertiti!

I have to think upon that.
My gut reaction would be...they would kill him. Too dangerous!

Would they have attempted to turn him back to the light?

He had violated the Jedi Code way before this. The slaughter of the Tuskins....would Padme be looked upon as guilty as well....due to the fact she did not tell anyone?

Marriage! Attachment! No! No!

Pregnant Padme!....that would have been the clincher..

They may have put him in stasis until they figured out what to do...

Rehab? Remember...they don't believe he can be turned back...once down the path of the Dark Side.

Have to go for now.

Have a beautiful day!

Looking forward to any other comments.

"Nerfertiti...does it not translate into "The beautiful one has come..."

As to Nerfer's husband....Ankhanaton..(sp) interesting character....boy can you tell the Egyptians believes in incest with that guy...strange looking ...exact opposite of Nerfertiti.

My personal role models:
Hatshepsuet
Joan of Arc
Evita Peron

Bye!

 

good question what would have happend to anakin and padme if they had been found out and exposed

would they have fled in shame
a senator and a jedi maried THE SHAME

or would anakin still gone on akill crazy rampage killing all who wronged his wife

seing as he is a bit of unstable puppy im guessing option 2


my role models

john lennon
jimmy page
keith richards
bono

 

How would he have been treated? No possible way they could have thought he could be turned back, even if he wanted to. His abilities under the Darkness would have forever made him susceptible to going that way with the drop of a hat. But would they have killed him? How often have we heard the phrase, "...not the Jedi way..."? Wouldn't outright killing of Anakin/Vader be contrary to Jedi beliefs? Although a pivotal point in the story, the Tuskin slaughter has lost it's impact. It can be used as example of why Anakin began the walk to the Darkness; or it can be used as an example of how really dangerous he was. Padmé's acceptance of Anakin's remorse and failure to tell someone makes her an accomplice, abet after the fact, but yes, an accomplice.

If Anakin survived and were re-taken by the Jedi - Padme would be dead. She dies (in a way) before he starts the duel with Obi-1, so logically she would continue to be dead. How would that affect the recaptured Anakin?

Stasis? And allow the Rebels to find a way to release him? Nope. In most cases, in history, heirs are killed in order to keep conflict from happening.

Generations of inbreeding - and the results was Ankhanaten (original name). Considered a gentle men, his fanatic belief in a single god caused his death, his families death and finally a change in the Egyptian empire which led to some of it's greatest leaders. She married him voluntarily and, it's believed loved him without thought. Hatshepsuet (Hat) first woman pharaoh, married her son to keep the line of secession strong. Extraordinary woman, she was erased from the Egyptian line and was only re-discovered in the past century.

Anakin and Padmé discovered... His anger at being dismissed from the Order would have sent him on the same path. Palpatine still has his claws in the kid and as we have seen, though loved, Padmé has little to no influence over him. There is no shame in their marriage, just that they thought they were above following the rules - that they knew about. Deceitful actions end up badly.

 

OH! I probably shouldn't but I find this too enticing to ignore.

Anakin, if he'd have been "saved" by Obi wan, might have had a chance at some sort of an epiphany. I think Obi wan, too, might have had a crisis moment,as well. So here is how I could see it play out:

Obi wan, tears and perspiration pouring over his face, his eyes blinded by the fumes and heat twisting up from the molten stream below, seeing the raging animal give way to the child of his heart, defied reason, defied caution, defied the past hour and reach out through the Force as he leaped and extended himself, striving with every molecule to pull Anakin back from the fall.

Obi wan?s hand made purchase as he pulled the invalid over the ledge and Anakin, surprised, but his eyes still wild and hateful, still filled with that rage, thought he might rend that fool asunder even as he lay gasping and pained, splayed across Obi wan?s leg. He stared a cold hard stare at Obi wan.

?Don?t you make a move, Anakin! Don?t do it, or I might just join you and that would be a very ugly sight indeed!?

Anakin coughed, the pain was excruciating. ?I hope you aren?t waiting for gratitude, you ??

?Shut it, Anakin,? said Obi wan as he lifted the broken young man in his arms, his face a strange mixture of hardness and love, ?just shut it.?

A whine and an even rumble filled the sky overhead and they both looked up to see a shuttle sail in from out of the smoky clouds.

?I?ll make a deal with you Anakin, you sit tight till I get you taken care of and then we?ll take up where we left off,? said the Jedi as he ran breathless over the cruel black stone of Mustafar.

Weakened and gritting in pain, Anakin knew full well he could still inflict damage if he so desired, but he was somewhat disarmed by the Jedi?s actions and hadn?t he called to Obi wan? ?

***

As they pulled away, Obi wan took on wild evasive maneuvers to avoid pursuit and Anakin groaned with every turn and twist. The possibilities crowded Obi wan?s mind. He didn?t know what would happen next, but he was certain this was only the beginning of Anakin?s pains.

***

The medical room was blinding to him. As Obi wan laid him down and pulled away, to his great anxiety and pain, he saw Padme lying across from him and he called to her, nearly falling from the table, where the droids were strapping him down. ?Padme,? he called weakly. The droids were already busy tending her, and at his voice, her eyes opened and she turned her head toward him, tears spilling over and down to the pillow, ?Anakin,? she mouthed, but her eyes closed again...

?Do something, do something,? he screamed frantically, but as he struggled, the opportunity provided by his distraction was taken so that he might be anesthetized, and Anakin fell back in a dead slump upon his table.


?What shall we do, Master Yoda,? asked Obi wan wearily, his face betraying his tortured heart.

?Ponder it, we must,?yet, Obi wan,? said Master Yoda quietly and placing his hand upon the Jedi?s shoulder, ?perhaps the conventional road is not our option. We must learn from our hearts, as you have, and look beyond ourselves for answers. Assistance, we may have,? and the little Master touched his nose in a knowing way, and strangely enough, smiled?.

***

She touched his face before she died and he felt her life leave her, and he wept. Yet, Padme had gone speaking love, and he had been given some sort of reprieve. Somehow he knew this. He would survive to avenge her death. So for now, he would succumb, and yield to whatever ministrations the Jedi offered, and then?then?

 

Glad to see that a JW club has been formed...

Great idea DU...

As far as the idea of if Anakin had been saved by Obi-wan and then brought back by him to the Jedi, a few thoughts post I:

1. Anakin now sees first hand what he has done to Padme, and unleashes his fury there instead...

2. Anakin sees that he has 2 children, maybe that could help to turn him back...

3. Yoda takes Anakin to Dagobah, I think this would be a perfect place for him to come back to the good side, but only Yoda can bring him back, Anakin would never want to see Obi-wan again...

4. Sidious would start searching for Anakin as he desparately would want him to be his apprentice...

5. The Empire would not be able to rule as well with Anakin/Vader unaccounted for...

6. Maybe I should just make a story about these and other possibilities...

BOO.. HOO...

DLR...

 

This sound very interesting, DarkLordRising. You really should think about writing a story like this. I would be glued to the screen.

On the other topic: I think Padme died because she thougt Anakin was dead/dying (not because of his evil deeds or any healed "medical reason"). In seeing Obi-Wan she must have felt something like "If he's alive, than Anakin is dead". Did Obi knew at that time, that Anakin might have survived? I don't know.

In Titus' novel at first the kids, than Obi, than Yoda "feel" Ani/Vaders presence. Too late for Padme. It would be interesting to know if she would have died knowing Anakin still being alive/being able to turn back from the Dark Side. I'm sure she would be the first trying to save him, and with her alive, Anakin might be able to turn back rather fast, regreting even more what he has done with her knowing of it.

Mhhh ... " ... there still is good in him" ... perhaps she did feel he was alive, before even the others knew of it.

 

I'm speechless. Pasha, that was just beautiful. Absolutely amazing. Did you major in some sort of English/psychology/literature major?

Fascinating dicussion! I hope you don't mind if I join in...

I have read several fanfics contemplating this very subject -- if Anakin had survived -- so I'm glad we're discussing the topic here. I personally agree partially with Pasha --Anakin would probably take advantage of the help offered to him by the Jedi offered to him by the Jedi, but would not necessarily convert back to the light. However,I disagree that Padme would have died and thus I think it's possible that Anakin could have changed his ways had she lived. Now, before everyone laughs and points out that I was the one who thought Padme shouldn't die in ROTS, hear my argument.

Why would Padme live? Looking back at spoilers and JW's novel, we have been told that Padme dies of a broken heart. I take this argument from the fact that the medical droids have repaired all internal injuries and cannot find the reason why Padme is dying. Look at this passage from JW's novel:

?All physical damage has been repaired, yet her condition continues to worsen,? the droid said. ?The physicians cannot explain it.? (Chapter Thirty-Six)

There's another scene -- I can't remember if it's in the novel or if it's on MF.com -- where Padme cries out Anakin's name and apologizes to her absent husband. Anakin has rejected her, and she feels responsible for his fall. In real life, there are cases where a person becomes so depressed to the point where his or her body ceases to function properly. Think about all that has happened to Padme: her husband is a murderer and has even physically, emotionally, and psychologically harmed her, her Republic is in shambles, the man she trusted has betrayed her and established a violent dictatorship over the galaxy, and everything she's ever worked toward has fallen apart. I believe that Anakin's rejection was the last straw for Padme.

However, if Pasha's scenario had taken place, I think the sight of her husband and his obvious concern for her might have helped Padme survive. If Anakin had suddenly appeared and had exhibited concern for her, would that have helped her broken heart? Here she is, waiting for Death's arrival, believing that there is no hope for her, when suddenly her husband arrives, wounded, with concern for the well-being of his wife. To quote Pasha:

As Obi wan laid him down and pulled away, to his great anxiety and pain, he saw Padme lying across from him and he called to her, nearly falling from the table, where the droids were strapping him down. ?Padme,? he called weakly. The droids were already busy tending her, and at his voice, her eyes opened and she turned her head toward him, tears spilling over and down to the pillow...

The appearance of her wounded husband might have given Padme a new determination to live.

Now, if Padme had lived, perhaps Anakin would have would have turned back from the darkess. At the sight of his wife dying before him, Anakin might have a change of heart. He witnesses before him the consequences of his hatred and anger -- the apparent suffering and death of his beloved wife by his own hands. Realizing that his wife suffers because of him, Anakin is deeply moved and resolves to change his ways. With renewed hope, Padme determines to live as she realizes that her husband does love her. *cue: happy, romantic music* On a different note, though, Padme probably would not continue to stay married to Anakin -- after all, he is a murderer-- which would make her husband angrier and lead him further down the darkside. But that's a different argument that does not support my point...

That's just a thought.

Now, if Anakin had turned back, how would the Jedi handle the situation? First, I believe that they would have kicked Anakin out of the Order. The massacre of most of the Jedi is still too great of a sin to automatically forgive Anakin of, unless someone was God. Seriously, if a member of your group

 

Fascinating role models, LZM.

Mine would have to be:
Isabella de Este
Rebecca St. James
Mother Theresa
The late Pope John Paul II for his continual pursuit of peace and strong defense of life

 

Pash - it's the beauty of your writing and your Vader that allows you to put such a fitting ending to the saga, but it couldn't be. In that last duel - Anakin hates Obi-1 - and as he slips into the lava - he screams those words to him. There isn't an "opening" for Anakin to rethink or re-feel the conflict within and without himself. And though I will give into Anakin is still very much a confused character, he has made the decision (at this point of the story) to be the aggressor.

We could easily put a pause or moment for this scenario to happen, but still, he would not return to the Jedi. The "taste" of power is hard to extinguish. The feel of power is an aphrodisiac. Killing, though difficult the first time, becomes an art-form - with practice. Our boy Anakin becomes one such artist.

 

Good point, Nefertiti. I suppose one could argue one way or the other depending on how well he or she argues...though I think you're right: Anakin is too far gone to be redeemed. Wait! I'm contradicting my argument above! Wait -- I'm confused...*runs off to finish "Heart of Darkness" essay* I should apply my essay to this discussion...

In "Heart of Darkness," Joseph Conrad argues that man -- no matter his race -- has a darkness, a barbaric nature, in him that always attempts to surface and fights for control of a person. For some, like the manager, the Swede, and the Russian in HoD and the innocent Jedi (Kit Fisto, padawans, younglings, etc.) in ROTS, this darkness never surfaces. Others, like the narrarator Marlow (HoD) and Obi-Wan (ROTS), are able to recognize this darkness, even in themselves, and fight it. Some, though, like Kurtz (HoD) and Anakin (ROTS), do not recognize this darkness in themselves at first, although they see it in others. Kurtz sees "darkness" and barbarism in the Congo natives, Anakin sees darkness in Palpatine. In the end, however, both realize that this same darkness exists in themselves, but by that time, the darkness already has a strong hold on them and they are corrupted.

Wow -- never thought I'd draw parallels between literature and SW...WAIT! Why am I doing this when I have an essay to write???? Forgive me guys, this topic just enlightened me...must go write essay now...don't flame me...

 

I'm not finished, yet!!!! DarkLordRising, that's about where I was going. Hang on, Nefertiti! There was a split second where fear of death and memory, and let me say muscles have memory and will tend to resume actions long left, as will the brain. Anakin has a habit of affection and generosity. Let's not forget that. I am going with that window when Anakin calls to Obi wan.

I agree the path would be frought with major difficulties. As to Padme reviving. Yes, that could happen possibly, but I'll go with her dieing in this instance and you'll see why. I also think that it might be too late for her system to change course. Here is how I'd continue it:

Anakin swooned and would have welcomed unconsciousness but for the bright and urgent sounds of the babies. Her voice sounded over and over, "I love you Anakin, and nothing, nothing can change that! Not Sidious, not even you!" No, no, that's not what he wanted to hear. Why hadn't she said, "I hate you, you monster. May you be forever damned; unforgiven?" But instead, she had died asking pardon and charging him to keep safe the life they had created together. He tried to be angry that she had been so foolish, yet...yet...their cries cut through his thoughts. They cut through all the murk, till he could think of nothing else.

Were they supposed to cry like that? The droids moved about him busily clamping over and cleaning tissue, connecting electrodes and making temporary seals for the stubs that remained of all but one leg. The droids let the children feed at poor Padme's breasts. The ghoulishness of it bathed him in shame, and Anakin Skywalker, Lord Darth Vader dissolved into heart rending sobs.

"Bring the children to him," commanded Yoda calmly as one of the medi-droids looked up to the observation window.

"Master, is this wise," queried Obi wan rising from his seat in the dark.

"You will see..."

Anakin opened his eyes to a most incongruent situation. An attendant stood next to him, a child in each arm and she seemed to offer to hold them up for him to see. He looked at her in this surreal environment, the past hours, a nightmare, and his lips parted, as his brow furrowed in confused surprise. Yet, there they were, all very real. And as she brought them close, one of them, its little limbs flexing and stretching actually seemed to reach for him. The attendant touched the child to his face and the warmth, the softness, the scent, the fragility, the tenderness, the light, the blood of his blood, the touch of Padme, washed over him in a massive wave of remorse and confusion. A tide was changing and once again, he felt helpless to do anything but move with it.

"The bond," she said mysteriously, "sir, infants need the parent's touch." He glanced sideways at the attendant warily and then put an arm under the child. Gently she lowered the baby onto his arm and he felt his soul make the promise she begged of him....

Obi wan leaned the least bit forward, careful to remain from view and he looked on in wonder. Yoda smiled and said enigmatically, "The bond..."

***

"For now, you must not speak with him, Obi wan. Fragile he is. I will take him with me to Dagobah. Take the children as we have discussed, we are all agreed," said the Master as he looked to Bail and Obi wan. Bail breathed hard. He had his reservations, but he couldn't fool himself. He'd already thought about the possibility of adopting the children as his own, and this strange turn of events put a strange twist to everything. Yet, when he'd looked on at the wretched Anakin weakly holding the children in his stumps, Bail's heart broke. Yes, he would do it.

Obi wan pursed his lips and still wondered if he'd done the wrong thing. He looked across to Yoda, who raised a brow and twitched an ear. "Alright, yes! For how long, Master," asked Obi wan.

"For as long as it takes, as long as it takes..." said Yoda.



More....

 

Pasha, you have a rare and wonderful gift of storytelling. OMG! I nearly cried -- that little pice was so touching. I am convinced. Anakin can be redeemed. Bravo!!!

 

Pash - I could never dispute the way you have with words. The feelings you impart with those words. And the dreams you make possible. Looking at JW's story - there is never a place in EP III where Anakin shows those traits he once had - compassion, affection, generosity. Not canon, I realize, but that Anakin is gone - and I am a forgiving woman. Give me something to base my forgiveness on. If his intentions were good (saving Padmé) his methods were not. And there is no way that in this case - "The means justify the end". You would like me to believe that the sight of his children would and could bring him back. Instead I see him glancing at his dead wife - who's death is his fault - his broken destroyed body - his mind attempting to come to terms with the results of his actions and then two babies. He would reject them 1) unworthy to be their father; 2) killer of their mother; 3) mass murderer; 4) no longer handsome - vanity. Yoda retraining Anakin? If in his acknowledgment of love for Anakin, and his ability to convince Anakin to live not die. It would have to be Obi-1. They have much to discuss. Saying "I love you", doesn't always have the same impact as demonstrating love - saving the life of the man who wants you dead. There is, with this scenario, a stronger bond and, yes love, between them. They need to heal together.

But again, Pash a beautiful scene, beautiful!

 

Auughhhhhh!!!!

Nefertiti and Pasha -- You both have an excellent way with words. I only hope that one day (after another 6 or so years of school) I have such a way with words as well...Alas, my strength is in math and the study of things past...

Anyway, you both have torn me in two!!! Can Anakin be redeemed, or is he doomed to damnation?????

 

WLOR - Pashatemur is art. With ease words are brush strokes. Colors, style, softness and harshness are Pash's signature. I am merely an observer, it's what I do best.

There is no right or wrong. This is all about feelings. Yours.

 

Nefertiti, while I understand the logic with which you've supported your argument, we aren't talking about Joe SliceandDice, here. This is why, as Yoda says, Anakin is too fragile to see and speak with Obi wan just now. Not forever, but for now.

They will seek Qui Gon's assistance, Nef. In my opinion, hearing alot of what he believed validated by Qui Gon would take Anakin closer to opening his ears. As to sugar coating, I'm not. I didn't mean to leave the reader with the impression that Anakin has decided to "turn" again. He hasn't made a decision, but he is being effected. (Obi wan saves Anakin is my scenario as he slips over the edge.) I most respectfully, disagree. Even the Nazi leaders had children they loved. This is what is so confounding about good and evil.

-I know Nef. and don't doubt it! As to child rearing, yes Mam. That's why Yoda, Bail, and Obi wan are going to take the children off as previously described. So, you are correct and Anakin will not be changing nappies. Ha, ha, ha! LOL! But touching them is very good therapy for right now, because the real infant here is...Anakin! He has to connect as a baby all over again.

 

Understanding logic and being able to be logical are distinctly two different things.

Why aren't we talking about "Joe SliceandDice"?

A confrontational individual, I believe that Anakin and Obi-1 should be shipwrecked (after your piece) on a island with nothing other then food and water. That is how they will "be" again.

Never saw an inch of sugar in your excerpt - just saw Pash.

Didn't get the impression that Anakin was going to turn - but don't believe that he had reason to be whole again either.

I've always wanted Anakin to take Obi-1's hand. Always wanted the kid to get that wake-up call before the end. Wanted him to take that hand to show that good can conquer evil. And I like your piece as I have like everything you have written.

Loving your children doesn't necessarily mean you take care of them, or are good to them or don't kill them. Anakin is damaged good. Physically, mentally and emotionally. He's not fit for child rearing.


EDIT: This guy gets more breaks than Lucifer. We, the audience, continually give him another try. At what point do we open our eyes and see that there is no goodness in this being? It's beyond me where Padmé and Luke find it. But we always wait. We always look. Anakin a baby...he always has been. Now because he is, righteously destroyed, we are going to nurse him back to health - so that he can once again attempt to destroy democracy.

 

Hmmmmm....interesting. Where's LZM? She'd be a nice addition to the discussion right now.

I agree that Anakin is unfit for childrearing. That's one of the frightening things in this world -- the frequent fusion of good and evil in the same person...almost like a bipolar issue...Look at the BTK killer, for example, the guy who murdered several people years ago. He was apparently a loving father and husband, a church member, Boy Scout leader, and who knows what else. Yet he viciously murdered a mother who had small children and entire families. I would not want a man with violent tendencies to raise my children -- Anakin has continually proved that he is emotionally unstable. Killing Tusken Raiders, younglings, Padme (in a roundabout way), etc. Not the kind of father I'd like.

As for who should work with Anakin, I'd say that Yoda is probably the better choice. Anakin still has much resentment towards Obi-Wan. I like how Pasha portrayed Anakin's rescue -- he still hates ObiWan and contemplates harming him, even though his former master just saved his life. There's too much tension between the two -- Yoda would be able to work better with Anakin, especially since Qui-Gon would be there to help. I think Anakin would listen to Qui-Gon.

Fascinating!!!

 

May I ask why JTC and SDO fanboys are so insane? I wish we could have discussion like this more frequently...I went over to the SDo thread, and there's a huge RPG battle going on between the SDO and JTC...now, JTCers want me to get married again since SithLord became Jedimaster...

I MISS HAVING JW'S POST TO LOOK FORWARD TO!!! *bad English, too tired to care...* Sorry -- Having 4 essays due at once does this to you...

Pasha, when can we expect the next part of your wonderful novel? Looking forward to it!

 

hey everyone in case u haven't it's me SithLord2457, i have a new user name bc i apparently did something very foolish that got my other name banned. just thought i'd let u guys know

 

We love you, SithLord/JediMaster!!!

BTW, you're forgiven for not taking me on a honeymoon.

 

Hi, everyone!

Could this be the explanation for Padme's death?

In the official novel, Anakin tells Padme of his dream! That she was going to die in childbirth.
She accepted so easily!

Anakin is fighting it all the way!

Was it the power of suggestion?
Padme had her babies - and died?

 

Intersting, M'Lady. We missed you earlier! The discussion needed your wise input...What do yu think of my comparison of Star Wars with Heart of Darkness?