Discussion Keep the Midi-chlorians out of the sequels please!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Sith_Knight087, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    It's not. Otherwise like many have pointed out Yoda and Obi-Wan could have trained any Joe Schmo. But there is a reason why Luke and Leia are the "last hope" for the Jedi.
  2. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

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    Yes, I don't understand why people don't always see that. They don't have to agree with it, but they must at least understand the point trying to be made?
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  3. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

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    But at that point in time, no Joe Shmos believed anymore. Nobody cared about the Force or Jedis. At least that's how it seemed before the PT existed. And now that the PT does exist, its hard to see it that way again.
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  4. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

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    Just to clarify here, what midichlorians really are.
    (I just feel like we're all on different pages)

    Midichlorians are sentient microscopic organelles that live symbiotically within a person's blood stream.
    Midichlorians are necessary to life, and therefore every being has midichlorians.
    Also any planet that would support life would have midichlorians.

    Midichlorians are not the Force, they are like telephone cables, connecting a person's mind and body with the Force.

    So,every single being has these "telephone cables".
    Those who are Force Sensitive/have "Force potential" have more telephone cables, which makes it easier for the Force to connect with their mind and body. Those who are not Force sensitive do not have enough cables for the Force to "connect"

    Now, if you do not maintain these telephone cables, or keep them running properly, you will not get the benefit of if you do take care of these telephone cables.
    In this way, training is simply harnessing the potential, and building stronger connections, and thus enabling both the trainee and the Force to take advantage of these connections.

    Yoda states they are "luminous", because they have the benefit of the Force. They have the potential and possibility to harness it that others do not.


    Reference from Wookieepedia:
    Directly copy pasted.

    Midi-chlorians were intelligent microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited and comprising a collective consciousness among themselves. Present in all life, midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every planet that supported life. Midi-chlorians, in fact, were necessary for life to exist. They also allowed for a connection with the pervasive energy field known as the Force ;in sufficient numbers, midi-chlorians could allow their symbiont organism to detect the Force, and this connection could be strengthened by quieting one's mind, allowing the midi-chlorians to "speak" to their symbiont and communicate the will of the Force.


    Edit: Again, I thought the Jedi were privileged after Yoda had said his luminous beings spiel, at that moment I thought there had to be something different about the Jedi and Sith. That might be one of the reasons that I don't mind the midis at all.
    Last edited by Admiral Volshe, Mar 9, 2013
  5. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Where in the movies is that shown? I understand Han Solo doesn't believe but he is simply one person in a galaxy of trillions. Obviously Dodonna still believes and it stands to reason that there are many more out there in the galaxy who believe. But it is Luke who they have spent so many years watching over and then training and it is Leia who is the only "other" option. Why? Luke: "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it... I have it... and my sister has it." I don't know that sounds strongly like genetics coming into play but maybe I'm crazy.
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  6. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

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    No you are not crazy and it is that very line that caused me to think about the whole topic as much as I have. I just don't think that, back then, anyone thought that genetics was the one and only path to the force, even with that line, indicating a familial connection in the case of the Skywalkers. But it didn't seem to preclude everything else, as Midi-clorians seems to do.
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  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    No, no, no. That doesn't work. Why would Anakin tell Obi-Wan about Plagueis? Luke could simply have found a Plagueis or Sidious holocron.

    The films said nothing of this. In fact, Leia's destiny isn't spoken of at all. It is only said that she has strength in the Force.

    But how would one know such a thing to be true? Why would Palpatine, in particular, think that any hypothetical children of Anakin would be a threat to him, as we were told in ROTJ? Who else in Anakin's family - besides Anakin himself - would be there to provide a basis for the assumption that Anakin's entire family had a "strong spiritual connection to the Force"? And in relation to my earlier point about so-called luminous beings, why should a "spiritual Force connection", if not dictated by biology, be something inheritable in the first place?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
  8. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    That's part of the reason why I love the PT because it enlightens us on many of the misconceptions we may have had about the OT. I think that line is a clear example of this. Since midi-chlorians were a concept GL thought up long before ROTJ it seems clear that that was what he was hinting at in this scene. Watching the OT now it's clear that there is a genetic factor at play. It isn't a contradiction that the PT made because it was always there we just didn't notice it.
    Last edited by Darth Chiznuk, Mar 9, 2013
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    You have your interpretation, I have mine. Lets leave it at that. I'm tired of writing dozens of explanations which will be endlessly questioned. I have answered anything to the best of my ability while you refrained to do so.

    You have any proof it isn't so? If not, then buzz off.

    My theory actually works, midis don't very well.
  10. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    It's not a matter of interpretation, it's right there in the movie. But fine...
  11. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

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    If the writers decide that cheapening the concept of spiritual enlightenment by tying it to genetics is essential for the story, then whatever.

    I mean, the tie in fiction has pretty much taken the concept and ran it headlong into creepy force-husbandry territory so it's not exactly something that can be washed clean.
    Last edited by Reveen, Mar 10, 2013
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Can someone answer me, why, if the force potential is bound to genetics, nobody yet identified the relevant genes and inserted them into the genetic code of a subject? This is something we can do in our world already and I think the Sith would me mightily interested in creating subjects with artificially enhanced force potential.

    I asked this before but it was ignored.
  13. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

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    I have to agree that if midichlorians are never mentioned in the new movies, it will be no great loss and would, in many ways, be a great benefit - at least to me! That being said, I realize that there is no way, at this point, they can "undo" the midichlorians as a story element, so the best they could do in that regard was to just avoid/minimize references.

    The 'whys" of that have been pretty well batted around above, so I won't take a ton of time, but Reveen touches on the crux very nicely, directly above.
    To me, when I saw the "Classic" movies, I imagined that the Jedi's abilities were grounded in a sort of spiritual enlightenment. I'm not suggesting that "just anyone" could be a Jedi, but the reasons for that would have more to do with character and something more "mystical" than they would with anything you would ever find in a blood test in a lab. The Prequels dont entirely abandon that concept - clearly the teachings of the Jedi and Sith have something to do with WHY they can access the power of the Force - but by tying it so strongly to something that is simply biological and scientific, Lucas and company (IMHO) weakened the concept.

    I'd be very happy if the new films chose to simply "not go there" much, if at all.
  14. T-R- Chosen One

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    In CTC's version you need belief, training, and fate to access the force, not just belief and training as you suggest and CTC liked and said "it is."

    The bold quote was never implied in the OT otherwise most of the rebels would be able to manipulate the force.

    The underlined quote was already implied in the OT as stated numerous times in this thread already.

    You have to ask yourself 2 questions:
    1.) if belief and training alone allow you to manipulate the force, why was Luke the only one in 20 years to be trained?
    2.) if belief and training alone allow you to manipulate the force, why did Leia tell Luke that he had a power that that she could never have? And why was Luke's answer that it runs strong in his family?

    The thing is, the PT and midichlorians did not change what the OT said about the Force, or why some people can access it and most can't, in any way what so ever. It only changed what you thought was the reason. That is the conflict.
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  15. T-R- Chosen One

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    Buzz off? How nice. A tactic reserved for the loosing side in a debate.

    The proof is that no where is fate or destiny ever mentioned as a possibility that grant force sensitivity. NO WHERE. However, the OT clearly makes it an inheritable genetic characteristic.

    Your theory is just that a theory. The fact is it was genetic in the OT and Lucas had midichlorians in 1977, while writing the OT.

    Just because the are like mitochondria, doesn't mean they are exactly the same. They are ficticious organelles and can exhibit any characteristic their creator wants.

    and:
    "The number of mitochondria in a cell varies widely by organism and tissue type. Many cells have only a single mitochondrion, whereas others can contain several thousand mitochondria"

    The midichlorians and cloning don't mix (as stated in the EU). And, because this is fiction, their creator doesn't want them to be able to be transferred.
    Last edited by T-R-, Mar 10, 2013
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  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    In the movies everything has a deeper "meaning" and there is no such thing as luck, as Obi-Wan points out.

    The will of the force is apparent in every of the "contrived coincidences" of the OT and PT, from the fact that the droids stumbled onto Lukes doorstep, or that he was able to hit the DS with his torpedoes, or that Han was able to rescue him during a blizzard. And now you're telling me force potential of all things doesn't depend on the will of the force? That what is most closely related to the force is actually dependent on biochemical machines? When we have seen in the PT that the force created a even more special chosen one to fulfill its will?

    Did I say cloning? No, I didn't.

    You can easily transfer genes into another organism. In biochemistry it is done all the ****ing time. I love how those who defend the "scientific explanation" have no knowledge of the relevant sciences.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Like many other things, just because it exists in our world, doesn't make it expectable to be done in the Star Wars universe.
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  18. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    In this technological wonderland, I'd expect they could do about everything we can do.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Biochemistry is pretty advanced in SW. The Kaminoans did some impressive things with Jango Fetts DNA. They should know all about horizontal gene transfer, Bacteriophages, PCR and whatever else is needed.


    Plus you don't even need biochemistry to do some force enhancement experimenting. Just breed subjects with high midi concentrations with each other to produce powerful offspring. Like you can breed dogs to have pointy ears you can do the same with force potential.


    If that doesn't take all the spirituality out of the force, I don't know what does.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 10, 2013
  20. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Speculation.


    Speculation.

    Again, having an high midi-chlorian count doesn't make you powerful, but potentially so.

    Fan fiction, as seen above.
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  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    No, fact. Humans can be selectively bred like cows or dogs or pigs. It just takes more time.

    And the Sith would be interested in creating someone with massive force potential, would they not?
  22. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    You have no in-universe proof to support that.

    And if it were possible and they had the knowledge, they would have done it already, right? Still, it's all speculation.
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  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    You are so obviously trolling.
    Of course I have proof for that. They are called Luke and Leia. Plus there are humans in SW and part of what makes humans human is genetic makeup.

    It's part of what's stupid about midis. GL introduced the concept of midis but didn't think about the consequences this would have. Namely that it is pretty easy to simply breed force potential then.

    "Why not clone Jedi?" is another plot-conundrum caused by midis.

    And I think a lot has already been said about Yodas "luminous beings" line.
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  24. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

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    No matter what any of the GL apologists insist, an entire generation of kids spent more than a little bit of time trying to move object with their minds after they watched Empire because they were not under the impression that the Force required proper genetics to function. You can't erase the entire world's zeitgeist with a retcon.

    Without question George Lucas changed his mind and did away with the concept of fate in favor of genetics sometime between Jedi and Phantom. Goodbye cool factor, hello nerd factor. Maybe he forgot about how it was in southern California in the 70's with the people of his generation experimenting with Zen Buddhism. Maybe he forgot in the ensuing decades why he blended that style of meditative mysticism into Star Wars. Maybe he was just embarrassed at his younger self for going through such a phase and no longer wanted his Jedi to exhibit any traces of that period in his life. Whatever his reasons are for changing the nature of the Force, there is simply no question that introducing genetics is a vast departure from how the Force was depicted as in the 70's and 80's.

    I feel sorry for the PT generation of Star Wars fans that have talked themselves into thinking this change was a positive step in the telling of the story of Star Wars. In the 80's we closed our eyes and for a moment or two really believed that we could become Jedi, such was the power of Star Wars. The Force was magic, and like magic, there were no genetic barriers to using it. You didn't have to be from another planet and you didn't have to be a super hero to practice magic... to use the Force. In fact, there was no science at all in the process. Just like every other swords and sorcery flick, (this one being, "in space",) in the Star Wars universe, all you had to be was fated, and George Lucas's version of what the force was in the 70's and 80's made it possible to believe that you might be fated to become a Jedi one day, even though you couldn't use the force right now. It elevated Star Wars above the nerdy science tropes of all of the existing sci-fi out there. GL himself even denied the sci-fi nature of the films, instead preferring the term "space opera".

    It must have sucked being raised on the PT and having to pretend that you had the right genetics to be a Jedi but knowing it wasn't really possible. Might as well have wished you were Superman, I guess.

    I know the GL apologists are going to parse this post out and will probably, at least in their own minds, succeed... but what I've said is truth. The rest of the world remembers what the Force was prior to the PT. Every fanboy argument in favor of genetics is simply a valid in universe retcon of the events that we grudgingly accept because we willingly participate in the game of canon.

    It's kind of a shame that GL forgot how to make magic. Maybe JJ can restore that now missing element to the franchise.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Mar 10, 2013
  25. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I've stated my reasons for why I don't think the PT contradicted anything in the OT about the Force so I won't go over that again. But Kilroy I just find it incredibly rude and unnecessary to call anyone who disagrees with your views about the PT a prequel apologist or a George Lucas apologist. I love the PT and I have nothing to apologize for. I simply have a different taste in movies than you and a different view about how they relate to the OT. Seriously is it so hard to comprehend that some people just simply liked the films and are not just talking themselves into liking them. I wouldn't call you a prequel basher for simply disliking a set a films that I like and I would (and I'm sure anyone who likes them would) appreciate not being called a prequel gusher or prequel apologist. They're just films and like every film ever made some are going to like them and some are going to dislike them.
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