Discussion Keep the Midi-chlorians out of the sequels please!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Sith_Knight087, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Master Blaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    But that begs the question, exactly what traits?? That was the question Lucas was trying to answer. People wanted it to be something vague, like artistic talent or something, but it's unthinkable that in an advanced scientific culture like what you see in PT that a very developed Jedi Order would not have broken such traits down and reduced it to very defined and measurable things.
    Last edited by Master Blaster, Mar 7, 2013
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  2. DarthButt Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2003
    star 5
    My biggest issue was with how the midichlorians were presented. There is no consistency to it.

    First:
    • They analized Anakins blood and stated his midichlorian count was 20,000 - only Master Yoda has a content that high
    • Qui-Gon stated they are microscopic organisms living in your cells
    This implies that the quantity of midichlorians per cell determines how powerful you can potentially become in the force. This makes sense.

    Later:
    • Lucas stated that because of Vader loosing his limbs, it reduced his midichlorian count which made him less powerful in the force - a way to explain why he isn't the bad ass in the OT he should have been and why he hadn't destroyed the Emporer. (a lot of people believe this to be the case here in the forums as well)
    So which one is it? If Vader loosing his limbs lowers his midichlorian count, then that implies that mass = ability in force. Also, Vader - even what is left of him - has more mass than Yoda. So therefore, Yoda couldn't have possibly been the most powerful Jedi because he simply didn't have enough mass to accomplish this.

    Either that or Vader never lost his ability in the force and there are other reasons why he chose a different path - which would possibly represent the good in him still holding on. His midichlorian content per cell hasn't changed, and why would it? This makes more sense, but contradicts Lucas.

    As long as it's constent and makes sense, I don't care if they are presented in the ST or not.
    Last edited by DarthButt, Mar 7, 2013
  3. Master Blaster Jedi Master

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    Mar 5, 2013
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    I suppose Yoda's race could have a different cellular structure than Anakin's which could allow for more cells per cubic inch. There you go, problem solved.
  4. Death T Jedi Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    Weren't they only mentioned like twice in the whole Saga? Some EU books use the word every other sentence (I'm looking at you "Darth Plageuis") but they haven't really plagued the films or anything the way some PT haters make it out to be. I'll be surprised
  5. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    i was hoping RotS would've mentioned Luke's count.......maybe we'll get this in the ST.
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  6. Rawne Force Ghost

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    Jan 2, 2008
    star 2
    I don't think it's the number of times the word is spoken that people have issues with.
    Last edited by Rawne, Mar 7, 2013
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  7. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    Don't presume that you speak for 'most people', please.

    Like it or not, the more scientific explanation as to what the Force is and how the Jedi are able to sense and interact with it is canonical fact, and it would be stupid and illogical for subsequent canon to pretend otherwise, particularly if the story itself warrants an in-depth explanation of the Force in some capacity.
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  8. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    After TPM everyone thought midis were bad. But then ROTS totally redeemed their inclusion in the saga. So I'm down with them being mentioned in passing in the ST.
  9. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I agree, but I didn't even have a problem with midichlorians after TPM. A lot of people incorrectly said that they WERE the Force.
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  10. Sith_Knight087 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 1
    That wasn't my original intention to put ''most people'' I was men't to say ''many people''. But unfortunately it's far too late to change that now, I'm stuck with it.
  11. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    ^ Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

    The primary reason I objected to the phrasing, BTW, is that I know from first-hand personal experience that many of the complaints that are bandied about regarding TPM both in general and in specificity - including the Midichlorian thing - aren't actually shared by the majority of the SW fandom - at least the Internet SW fandom - but instead by a vocal minority whose voices tend to drown out every other viewpoint.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Mar 7, 2013
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  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't want to see them.

    Mostly in fandom arguments they are used Dragonball Z style. Jedi B with 30000 Midis > Jedi C with 20000 Midis. Stupid to assume the Midichlorian count is the only important factor when considering the fighting prowess of a Jedi/Sith.

    I happen to find Mitochondrions fascinating. Midichlorians are a bad copy and I'm reminded constantly of that fact because of the similar names. What's next? Force golgi apparatus? Force Lysosom? Please...

    The Midichlorians don't fit well with Yodas line "Enlightened beings are we, not this crude matter." Meaning the mind is important, not matter. Last I checked, bacteria don't have a mind. They are small, biochemical machines. How exactly can a small biochemical machine like a Mitochondrion speak the will of the force?
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    Exactly, people think the two versions of the force, OT and PT, are compatible but they really aren't. The PT makes it clear that you are that crude matter, your abilities are dependent on it. It was a mistake to introduce it, a mistake that should be forgotten in the ST. So should virgin births and chosen ones. All of that should just not be mentioned.
  14. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    And I do.


    Fair enough, but I highly doubt that "the mass public did not understand this"--I suspect it's a minority of whiners. I've seen the movies with kids and none of them had any trouble understanding this very simple thing. You really don't need a science background for that. What's your field, by the way?
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  15. Sith_Knight087 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 1
    I'm not gonna lie, I should have done more research on the Midi-chlorian subject and considered other peoples opinions before posting the thread. It's best that I gain more insight on a certain subject before I post in future.
    Last edited by Sith_Knight087, Mar 7, 2013
  16. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    What if the entire plot of the ST ends up hinging on them...like "the midichlorians are dying out! We have to find out why!" And there is like this midichlorian-killing life force infiltrating the galaxy...just saying, it could happen.

    (and it would be totally dumb).
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That's no more valid than his original assertion that it is a majority. It's the same argument in reverse, if his isn't valid neither is yours.
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  18. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    ^ Actually, it is more valid because it's factually derived. These forums represent the largest portion of the Internet SW fandom, as far as I know, and the majority opinion here does not match the general perception that the Prequels are hated and that everything about them - including the Midichlorian thing - was crap. I know this because I've been part of these forums - under several different usernames - since before the PT was released.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Mar 7, 2013
  19. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I think I just threw up a little in my mouth. lol
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  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Hardly scientific or factual. I don't even think that you can make the claim that you have a majority here, much less anywhere else.

    Care to show me the research?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
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  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Mainly due to parental influence/pressure rather than genetic inheritance.

    When they were mentioned in the most recent previously released live-action film?

    That's why the ST should bring back Tenebrous rather than Plagueis. :D

    Actually, though Lucas has spoken of Anakin losing power in the Force - and I suspect he tends to use power and potential somewhat interchangeably, given that he has also spoken of Anakin's lost potential - he never said Anakin's midichlorian count was reduced. It stands to reason that it would not have been reduced, but midichlorian count is not necessarily the sole factor involved in Force potential.

    There are no "two versions of the Force" because the PT doesn't try to redefine the Force. It even leaves out the specific description of what the Force is, as seen in ANH/TESB. It only provides more information about the nature of Force sensitivity, which we already knew to be genetically inheritable in the OT thanks to ROTJ. Luke's Force strength was a direct result of his "crude" genetics even then: any child of Anakin Skywalker would have been seen as a threat to the Emperor and of pretty much automatic high Force potential. The extreme focus on Luke ( and by extension Leia ) as "last hope" in the OT tends to support the role played by genetics.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 7, 2013
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  22. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    I work in health care
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Epigenetics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

    Short and easier explanation: What your Momma ate and did during life shapes your genetics for life.

    Also interesting are the different types of muscle cells because the distribution of the different types is dependent on your genes (that's why Jamaicans are awesome sprinters):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle
  24. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Indeed. It's not so much about the midichlorians as it is about the Force. The Force is essentially the essence of life. As Yoda said, life creates it. Makes it grow. With Vader being more machine than man, he's essentially less alive, less connected to the Force. He's still more powerful than most guys. The reason he can't use Force lightning is because the Force can't flow through his mechanical hands has strongly as it can flow through living flesh and blood. He's powerful enough to stop blaster bolts but not to unleash that energy. Had he not been sliced up and turned into a cyborg, the Force could flow freely through his whole body, helping to realise his potential.
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  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    This, again, clashes with the "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Being a machine shouldn't change a thing. If a Jedi has a horrific accident and 90% of his body have to be replaced with machinery it doesn't mean his mind can't be pure and in tune with the force. He is also just as much a person as anybody else.

    Vader is evil because he does evil stuff, not because he needs machines to breath and move.
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